It isn’t topical anymore but a couple years ago getting an American liberal’s take on the Dubai Ports World controversy worked pretty well. Also, progressive criticisms of the Bush administration for not implementing more aggressive cargo inspections and airplane security were pretty much just about getting in shots at the administration and not based on evidence.
Last year’s debates on bailouts for the automobile and banking sectors struck me as mostly consisting of political signaling with only a handful of people who actually had any idea what they were talking about. You’d see people arguing either side without actually making any reference to any of the economics involved. I.e. “We need to make sure these people don’t lose their jobs!” versus “You’re just trying to help out your fat cat friends!”.
Getting someone on the center-left to admit certain advantages of free trade and market economies probably works as well. The brute opposition to “sweatshops” without offering any constructive policy to provide the people who work in such places with alternatives strikes me as another good example.
It’s a little harder for me to do this for the American right-wing since a sizeable portion (definitely not all of it, just an especially vocal part) of it appears to hold their positions for exclusively non-evidential reasons. Some of these reasons don’t event appear to have propositional content. (Maybe conservatives see the left this way, though. It might just be that I’m too far away from the right-wing to see this clearly).
A conservative’s position on industry subsides- agriculture, textile, sugar etc. is a probably a decent indicator, though. I’d say immigration but the people who oppose it might have good reasons given their terminal values.
A lot of times you can tell when someone holds a position for political reasons just by their diction. It is a really bad sign If someone is using the same phrases and buzzwords as the candidates they support. This reminds me: A little over a year ago the college Democrats here held a debate for the Democratic Presidential Primary. Each candidate was represented by a student who was supporting that candidate. I thought it had potential since being unofficial representatives the students would be comfortable leveling some harsh criticisms and really diving into their reasons for supporting their candidate. The actual candidates are always too afraid of screwing up or alienating someone to diverge from their talking points. What actually happened isn’t surprising once you think about the kind of people who are heavily involved in the college branches of political parties (especially at my university). If you haven’t guessed it, what happened was this: Every student representative sat on the stage reciting the very same talking points their candidate was already using to dodge criticisms and spin issues in the real debates. It was like a horrifying training session where students learn to ignore evidence, reason in favor of political hackery and bullshit.
It was like a horrifying training session where students learn to ignore evidence, reason in favor of political hackery and bullshit.
I can’t quite summon up all the splenetic juices I need to hate that sort of thing the way it needs to be hated. I live in Canada, and crikey are our politicians langues-du-bois. You should have seen the candidates debate at the last election. Every one of them just hit their keywords, as I recall. The Conservative Harper tinkled the ivories about “tough on crime,” “fiscal responsibility” and “liberal corruption” (mercifully not “family values”). The Liberal Dion played a crab canon about “environment” and “recession.” And the NDP (Social-Democratic) Layton just did a sort of Ambrosian chant incorporating every word that has ever made a progressive feel warm and fuzzy inside: “rights” “working families” “aboriginals” “choice” “fat cats” and “social spending.” It made me want to elect Silvio Berlusconi.
Looking over your comments, the breadth of your vocabulary really is splendid. Do words like “splenetic” just come to your tongue or are you commenting away with a thesaurus open?
Heh, it’s kind of you to say. Basically, I grew up on a steady diet of shows like Black Adder, Jeeves and Wooster, Fawlty Towers… and authors like Douglas Adams, Rex Stout & Terry Pratchett. So my way of expressing myself has become more than a bit idiosyncratic.
Mostly I just didn’t recognize any of the names, but I did recognize what you were talking about. I don’t think clarification is what is really necessary here; since the purpose of your post seems to be more anecdotal evidence and venting than a fountain of new ideas.
If your post WAS supposed to be a fountain of new ideas, then it could use a little extra explanation.
I feel like that came off as a little more negative than I wanted it to so I’d like to note that I did enjoy and vote up your post.
More the European way. It definitely does not have the strong negative connotations, even among conservatives. Also worth noting that one of our two main political parties is actually called the Liberal Party of Canada.
Another fun fact: Liberals are also affectionately known as Grits, and Conservatives as Tories.
Do you Canadians use liberal like we Americans use it or like Europeans use it?
More the European way...Also worth noting that one of our two main political parties is actually called the Liberal Party of Canada.
My understanding is that that party is roughly the equivalent of the U.S. Democrats or U.K. Labour—which would make the usage of “liberal” much more like the American usage (meaning “left-wing”) than the European usage (meaning “opposed to high levels of economic regulation”).
In Australia the Liberal party is right-wing (liberal on free trade policies, not on social policies), so I tend to get confused about discussions of “liberals” in the US unless I remember to switch definitions before reading.
A lot of times you can tell when someone holds a position for political reasons just by their diction.
Very true. When I was fourteen years old, there were presidential elections after Mitterand’s two terms (Did I tell you I was French? I’m French.). I remember a friend saying we needed change “after fourteen years of socialism”, and at the time I thought there was no way that was his opinion, and that he was merely repeating what (most likely) his father said.
I guess it’s even easier to recognize talking points in kids, because it’s things they would never spontaneously say. I also remember my mom pointing out that a “letter to the editor” in a Children’s newspaper was probably just the kid parroting a parent, because no child would write things like that—and I was mildly embarrassed because I hadn’t noticed at first. Hmm, I’ll have to point that kind of stuff to my kids too.
It isn’t topical anymore but a couple years ago getting an American liberal’s take on the Dubai Ports World controversy worked pretty well. Also, progressive criticisms of the Bush administration for not implementing more aggressive cargo inspections and airplane security were pretty much just about getting in shots at the administration and not based on evidence.
Last year’s debates on bailouts for the automobile and banking sectors struck me as mostly consisting of political signaling with only a handful of people who actually had any idea what they were talking about. You’d see people arguing either side without actually making any reference to any of the economics involved. I.e. “We need to make sure these people don’t lose their jobs!” versus “You’re just trying to help out your fat cat friends!”.
Getting someone on the center-left to admit certain advantages of free trade and market economies probably works as well. The brute opposition to “sweatshops” without offering any constructive policy to provide the people who work in such places with alternatives strikes me as another good example.
It’s a little harder for me to do this for the American right-wing since a sizeable portion (definitely not all of it, just an especially vocal part) of it appears to hold their positions for exclusively non-evidential reasons. Some of these reasons don’t event appear to have propositional content. (Maybe conservatives see the left this way, though. It might just be that I’m too far away from the right-wing to see this clearly).
A conservative’s position on industry subsides- agriculture, textile, sugar etc. is a probably a decent indicator, though. I’d say immigration but the people who oppose it might have good reasons given their terminal values.
A lot of times you can tell when someone holds a position for political reasons just by their diction. It is a really bad sign If someone is using the same phrases and buzzwords as the candidates they support. This reminds me: A little over a year ago the college Democrats here held a debate for the Democratic Presidential Primary. Each candidate was represented by a student who was supporting that candidate. I thought it had potential since being unofficial representatives the students would be comfortable leveling some harsh criticisms and really diving into their reasons for supporting their candidate. The actual candidates are always too afraid of screwing up or alienating someone to diverge from their talking points. What actually happened isn’t surprising once you think about the kind of people who are heavily involved in the college branches of political parties (especially at my university). If you haven’t guessed it, what happened was this: Every student representative sat on the stage reciting the very same talking points their candidate was already using to dodge criticisms and spin issues in the real debates. It was like a horrifying training session where students learn to ignore evidence, reason in favor of political hackery and bullshit.
I can’t quite summon up all the splenetic juices I need to hate that sort of thing the way it needs to be hated. I live in Canada, and crikey are our politicians langues-du-bois. You should have seen the candidates debate at the last election. Every one of them just hit their keywords, as I recall. The Conservative Harper tinkled the ivories about “tough on crime,” “fiscal responsibility” and “liberal corruption” (mercifully not “family values”). The Liberal Dion played a crab canon about “environment” and “recession.” And the NDP (Social-Democratic) Layton just did a sort of Ambrosian chant incorporating every word that has ever made a progressive feel warm and fuzzy inside: “rights” “working families” “aboriginals” “choice” “fat cats” and “social spending.” It made me want to elect Silvio Berlusconi.
I did not understand any of this post, but I enjoyed all of it.
ETA: I am now envisioning a Canadian man just chanting those phrases, over and over, clapping his hands and stomping his feet.
I endeavour to give satisfaction. =)
Anything I can clarify? Probably did overdo the classical music metaphors a little...
Looking over your comments, the breadth of your vocabulary really is splendid. Do words like “splenetic” just come to your tongue or are you commenting away with a thesaurus open?
Heh, it’s kind of you to say. Basically, I grew up on a steady diet of shows like Black Adder, Jeeves and Wooster, Fawlty Towers… and authors like Douglas Adams, Rex Stout & Terry Pratchett. So my way of expressing myself has become more than a bit idiosyncratic.
Mostly I just didn’t recognize any of the names, but I did recognize what you were talking about. I don’t think clarification is what is really necessary here; since the purpose of your post seems to be more anecdotal evidence and venting than a fountain of new ideas.
If your post WAS supposed to be a fountain of new ideas, then it could use a little extra explanation.
I feel like that came off as a little more negative than I wanted it to so I’d like to note that I did enjoy and vote up your post.
Do you Canadians use liberal like we Americans use it or like Europeans use it?
More the European way. It definitely does not have the strong negative connotations, even among conservatives. Also worth noting that one of our two main political parties is actually called the Liberal Party of Canada.
Another fun fact: Liberals are also affectionately known as Grits, and Conservatives as Tories.
My understanding is that that party is roughly the equivalent of the U.S. Democrats or U.K. Labour—which would make the usage of “liberal” much more like the American usage (meaning “left-wing”) than the European usage (meaning “opposed to high levels of economic regulation”).
uh—interesting. Thanks for pointing that out.
In Australia the Liberal party is right-wing (liberal on free trade policies, not on social policies), so I tend to get confused about discussions of “liberals” in the US unless I remember to switch definitions before reading.
There is that. I thought Jack was getting at the negative connotation aspect.
The Liberal party here is basically centre-left.
Very true. When I was fourteen years old, there were presidential elections after Mitterand’s two terms (Did I tell you I was French? I’m French.). I remember a friend saying we needed change “after fourteen years of socialism”, and at the time I thought there was no way that was his opinion, and that he was merely repeating what (most likely) his father said.
I guess it’s even easier to recognize talking points in kids, because it’s things they would never spontaneously say. I also remember my mom pointing out that a “letter to the editor” in a Children’s newspaper was probably just the kid parroting a parent, because no child would write things like that—and I was mildly embarrassed because I hadn’t noticed at first. Hmm, I’ll have to point that kind of stuff to my kids too.