I claim there are ratios of cheap-criticism-to-creativity that are much better than others. The extremes of the spectrum are both very problematic, if that’s all there is. But 50% probably isn’t the sweet spot either. It might be something like 1:10. Shifting the ratio toward that sweet spot is a solution, and I think that the essence of Duncan’s post is claiming which direction we ought to move in and why.
One of my challenges with Duncan’s post is that, personally, I’d much prefer somebody writing 3300 words explaining why they disagree with me in their own post than writing 15 words worth of PONDS [1] comments in response to one of mine. I don’t mind being disagreed with—just the burden-of-proof-shifting, nitpicky, low-grade negativity vibe that PONDS comments create. It’s specifically the short Socratic comments that bug me. But overall Duncan is aptly describing an important reason why I’ve started writing less on LessWrong over the last couple of years.
I’d also say that it’s an easy habit to fall into. I’ve done it myself (to Duncan, among others!), and I don’t like that about my own behavior. So I appreciate a renorming effort on this topic.
I agree there’s good ratios; while sometimes the answer defies common sense, for example, very often common sense is common for a reason. But even if you have a rough idea of what the ratio is, how do you maintain it precisely? “Poisoning annoying people with hemlock” is probably not a fantastic approach, however tempting it may be.
I think in a way there’s something of a precarious, somewhat unstable equilibrium in which a culture lives that allows it to balance these two forces in a healthy way, but then the culture can roll down either side of the hill (sometimes split in the middle and do both, which is what it feels like is happening now) and the magic breaks. I’m really not sure how you would even begin keeping it in the proper place, except within smaller subcultures where you can meaningfully gatekeep. You can try to foster a respect and understanding of the healthy middle point, but it’s hard to figure how could you strike the perfect balance of incentives that leads to “10% of society turns into Socrates, the rest are conformists”.
I agree it’s a moving target, but you don’t have to keep it precisely static in one place. Think of it more like a thermostat: we keep taking the temperature, then turn on heating or cooling depending on the difference between the current and desired temperature.
I get it, but honestly I think the most important practical take away about this is for how one should manage their own subculture/forum/whatever. Society-wide interpretations of this are really more likely to lead to rather dark places than do any good IMO. Opening it with an analogy about how maybe the guys who executed a philosopher for “corrupting the youth” and being essentially a heretic had a point may not be the best way to discuss it either: even if Socrates was potentially a danger, those are traditionally the exact same kind of excuses demagogues, populists and authoritarians use to justify their power, and deciding who was “right” here is not a simple exercise; perhaps an impossible one, after so much time.
I mean, it’s ancient Athens. Even supposing Socrates was threatening to destroy that society, if any of us was transported back in time, we’d probably try to destroy it too! What with all the slavery and the women treated as property? Obviously Socrates wasn’t doing it from either a feminist or anti-slavery point of view, but we’re not precisely in a position to talk. Not even “the order was trying to defend itself” is a good reason on its own. The order always tries to defend itself, but sometimes the order is bad.
I read Duncan’s post as being mainly about LW, using the society of Athens as an analogy. “Poisoning Socrates” to me would be more like reprimanding or firing an employee at a startup who’s demoralizing the team, not literally forcing somebody to commit suicide for criticizing someone else. In most places I think it’s recognized that there’s a balance between critique and creativity, and Duncan’s saying that specifically on LW, we seem to have stumbled into a bad equilibrium with way more cheap criticism than is productive to truth-seeking.
I claim there are ratios of cheap-criticism-to-creativity that are much better than others. The extremes of the spectrum are both very problematic, if that’s all there is. But 50% probably isn’t the sweet spot either. It might be something like 1:10. Shifting the ratio toward that sweet spot is a solution, and I think that the essence of Duncan’s post is claiming which direction we ought to move in and why.
One of my challenges with Duncan’s post is that, personally, I’d much prefer somebody writing 3300 words explaining why they disagree with me in their own post than writing 15 words worth of PONDS [1] comments in response to one of mine. I don’t mind being disagreed with—just the burden-of-proof-shifting, nitpicky, low-grade negativity vibe that PONDS comments create. It’s specifically the short Socratic comments that bug me. But overall Duncan is aptly describing an important reason why I’ve started writing less on LessWrong over the last couple of years.
I’d also say that it’s an easy habit to fall into. I’ve done it myself (to Duncan, among others!), and I don’t like that about my own behavior. So I appreciate a renorming effort on this topic.
[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/k5TTsuHovbeTWgszD/for-better-commenting-avoid-ponds
I agree there’s good ratios; while sometimes the answer defies common sense, for example, very often common sense is common for a reason. But even if you have a rough idea of what the ratio is, how do you maintain it precisely? “Poisoning annoying people with hemlock” is probably not a fantastic approach, however tempting it may be.
I think in a way there’s something of a precarious, somewhat unstable equilibrium in which a culture lives that allows it to balance these two forces in a healthy way, but then the culture can roll down either side of the hill (sometimes split in the middle and do both, which is what it feels like is happening now) and the magic breaks. I’m really not sure how you would even begin keeping it in the proper place, except within smaller subcultures where you can meaningfully gatekeep. You can try to foster a respect and understanding of the healthy middle point, but it’s hard to figure how could you strike the perfect balance of incentives that leads to “10% of society turns into Socrates, the rest are conformists”.
I agree it’s a moving target, but you don’t have to keep it precisely static in one place. Think of it more like a thermostat: we keep taking the temperature, then turn on heating or cooling depending on the difference between the current and desired temperature.
I get it, but honestly I think the most important practical take away about this is for how one should manage their own subculture/forum/whatever. Society-wide interpretations of this are really more likely to lead to rather dark places than do any good IMO. Opening it with an analogy about how maybe the guys who executed a philosopher for “corrupting the youth” and being essentially a heretic had a point may not be the best way to discuss it either: even if Socrates was potentially a danger, those are traditionally the exact same kind of excuses demagogues, populists and authoritarians use to justify their power, and deciding who was “right” here is not a simple exercise; perhaps an impossible one, after so much time.
I mean, it’s ancient Athens. Even supposing Socrates was threatening to destroy that society, if any of us was transported back in time, we’d probably try to destroy it too! What with all the slavery and the women treated as property? Obviously Socrates wasn’t doing it from either a feminist or anti-slavery point of view, but we’re not precisely in a position to talk. Not even “the order was trying to defend itself” is a good reason on its own. The order always tries to defend itself, but sometimes the order is bad.
I read Duncan’s post as being mainly about LW, using the society of Athens as an analogy. “Poisoning Socrates” to me would be more like reprimanding or firing an employee at a startup who’s demoralizing the team, not literally forcing somebody to commit suicide for criticizing someone else. In most places I think it’s recognized that there’s a balance between critique and creativity, and Duncan’s saying that specifically on LW, we seem to have stumbled into a bad equilibrium with way more cheap criticism than is productive to truth-seeking.