Deceiving others to obtain advantage over them is prima facie unethical in many spheres of life
Irrelevant. Is all fair in love?
I feel that dominance-seeking in romantic relationships is a profound betrayal of trust in a sphere where your moral obligations to behave well are most compelling.
Are you claiming that all romantic relationships which include the domination of one party by the other betray trust? I think we have differing definitions of dominance or good behavior.
Can you point me
Sure! First statement:
Bob behaved unethically in getting to this position since he knowingly brought about a negative-utility outcome for a moral stakeholder.
Second statement:
One approach would be to multiply the probability you have an Alice by the positive utility an Alice gets out of a one night stand, and multiply the probability that you have a Carol by the negative utility a Carol gets out of a one night stand, and see which figure was larger. That would be the strictly utilitarian approach to the question as proposed.
The first statement is judging a decision solely by its outcome; the second statement is judging a decision by its expected value at time of decision-making. The second methodology is closer to correct than the first.
(In the post with the first statement, it was the conclusion of a hypothetical scenario: Bob knew X about Alice, and had sex with her then didn’t contact her. I wasn’t contesting that win-lose outcomes were inferior to win-win outcomes, but was pointing out that the uncertainties involved are significant for any discussion of the subject. There’s no reason to give others autonomy in an omniscient utilitarian framework: just get their utility function and run the numbers for them. In real life, however, autonomy is a major part of any interactions or decision-making, in large part because we cannot have omniscience.)
It doesn’t seem unreasonable to go further and say that in large part the whole point of PUA is to bed Carols.
That does not seem reasonable. Alices may be up for one night stands, but they only have sex with at most one guy a night. The challenge is being that guy.
See, ah, I think I’m against advocating deliberately unethical behavior / defection on LW.
The question is what ethical standard to use. Whether or not exaggeration is unfair in matters of romance has not been established, and I would argue that exaggeration has a far more entrenched position than radical honesty.
That is, I would argue that not exaggerating your desirability as a mate is defection, rather than cooperation, and defection of the lose-lose variety rather than the win-lose variety.
There’s a big difference between asserting something is “irrelevant” versus “incorrect” or “unestablished”.
What was irrelevant is that deceit is unethical in many spheres of life. If deceit is unethical for a scientist* but ethical for a general, then knowing that deceit is unethical for a scientist is irrelevant if discussing generals.
What has not been established is whether romance is more like science or war. I think the former position is far weaker than the latter.
* I had a hard time coming up with any role in which any form of deceit is questionable, and thus I suppose if I were out for points I would question the correctness of the assertion, rather than merely its relevance. Even for scientists, exaggeration- the original behavior under question- is often ethical.
Let me check… nope, it looks like utilitarian ethics holds that ethical actions are those that maximise positive outcomes (however defined) factoring in the consequences for all stakeholders. I can’t see anything in there excluding actions or outcomes related to sex from the usual sorts of calculations. So I’m going to go ahead and say that the answer is no from a utilitarian perspective.
Are you claiming that all romantic relationships which include the domination of one party by the other betray trust? I think we have differing definitions of dominance or good behavior.
If we can exclude those cases where one partner or another honestly and explicitly expresses a free, informed and rational preference to be dominated then mostly yes.
(From a utilitarian perspective we have to at least be philosophically open to the idea that a person who is sufficiently bad at managing their utility might be better off being dominated against their will by a sufficiently altruistic dominator. See The Taming of the Shrew or Overboard. Such cases are atypical).
The first statement is judging a decision solely by its outcome
I have located the source of the confusion. What I actually said in the earlier post was this:
“t might well be that Bob has neither the interest not the ability to sustain a mutually optimal ongoing relationship with Alice and in that case the utility-maximising path from that point forward and hence the ethical option is for Bob to leave and not contact Alice again. However if Bob knew in advance that this was the case and had reason to believe that Alice’s utility function placed a negative value on participating in a one night stand with a person who was not interested in a long-term relationship then Bob behaved unethically in getting to this position since he knowingly brought about a negative-utility outcome for a moral stakeholder.”
I was not judging a situation solely on its outcome, because it was an if/then statement explicitly predicated on Bob knowing in advance that Alice’s utility function would take a major hit.
I guess you just lost track of the context and thought I’d said something I hadn’t. Are we back on the same page together now?
That does not seem reasonable. Alices may be up for one night stands, but they only have sex with at most one guy a night. The challenge is being that guy.
Possibly the recency effect of having skimmed one of Roissy’s blog posts where he specifically singled out for ridicule a female blogger who was expressing regret and confusion after a one night stand colours my recollection, but I am sure I have read PUA materials in the past that had specific sections dedicated to the problem of overcoming the resistance of women who had a preference not to engage in sex on the first/second/nth date, a preference that is certainly not inherently irrational and which seems intuitively likely to correlate with a high probability of regretting a one night stand if it does not turn into an ongoing, happy relationship.
Speaking more broadly a stereo salesperson maximises their sales by selling a stereo to every customer who walks in wanting to buy a stereo, and selling a stereo to as many customers as possible who walk in not wanting to buy a stereo. I’m sure they would prefer all their customers to be the first kind but you maximise your income by getting the most out of both. Game-theory-rational PUAs who don’t have Alices on tap, or a reliable way of filtering out Carols, or who just plain find some Carols attractive and want to sleep with them, would out of either necessity or preference have an interest in maximising their per-Carol chances of bedding a Carol.
It should be noted that, from the perspective of a utilitarian agent in certain environments, it may be the utilitarian action to self-modify into a non-utilitarian agent. That is, an unmodified utilitarian agent participating in certain interactions with non-utilitarian agents may create greater utility by self-modifying into a non-utilitarian agent.
If we can exclude those cases where one partner or another honestly and explicitly expresses a free, informed and rational preference to be dominated then mostly yes.
How prevalent do you think those cases are?
I guess you just lost track of the context and thought I’d said something I hadn’t. Are we back on the same page together now?
Did what you wrote agree with the parenthetical paragraph I wrote explaining my interpretation? If so, we’re on the same page.
a high probability of regretting a one night stand if it does not turn into an ongoing, happy relationship.
Let’s go back to a question I asked a while back that wasn’t answered that is now relevant again, and explore it a little more deeply. What is a utility function? It rank orders actions*. Why do you think stating regret is more indicative of utility than actions taken? If, in the morning, someone claims they prefer X but at night they do ~X, then it seems that it is easier to discount their words than their actions. (An agent who prefers vice at night and virtue during the day is, rather than being inconsistent, trying to get the best of both worlds.)
(As well, Augustine’s prayer is relevant here: Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.).
*Typically, utility functions are computed by assigning values to consequences, then figuring out the expected value of actions, but in order to make practical measurements it has to be considered with regards to actions.
I’m sure they would prefer all their customers to be the first kind but you maximise your income by getting the most out of both.
Right. But it’s not clear to me that it’s unethical for a salesman to sell to reluctant buyers. If you consider a third woman- Diana- who does not agree to have sex on the first date, then both of us would agree that having sex with Diana on the first date would be unethical, just like robbing someone and leaving them a stereo in exchange would be unethical. But pursuing Diana would not be, especially if it’s hard to tell the difference between her and Carol (or Alice) at first glance. Both Carols and Alices have an incentive to seem like Dianas while dating (also car-buying, though not stereo-buying), and so this isn’t an easy problem.
It seems odd to me to suggest a utilitarian should act as though Carols are Dianas.
Interesting question! However I think that we’d need to agree on a definition of “dominated” before any estimate would be meaningful. I’m happy to supply my estimate of prevalence for any definition that suits you.
For the definition I had in mind, which might be something like “in a relationship where one partner routinely makes the majority of important decisions on the basis of superior status” I would be surprised if it was below 0.1% or above 5%.
Did what you wrote agree with the parenthetical paragraph I wrote explaining my interpretation? If so, we’re on the same page.
Well no, I wouldn’t agree with that either, but that’s a separate issue. I don’t think it can be philosophically consistent to apply techniques which purportedly manipulate people by spoofing social signals that act on an unconscious level, distorting their sense of time and so forth and then excuse this on the basis that the agent you are manipulating has autonomy. If they had autonomy in the sense that excused you for attempts at manipulation you could not manipulate them, and if you can manipulate them then they lack the kind of strong autonomy that would give you a moral blank cheque.
Let’s go back to a question I asked a while back that wasn’t answered that is now relevant again, and explore it a little more deeply. What is a utility function? It rank orders actions*. Why do you think stating regret is more indicative of utility than actions taken?
I think it’s more indicative for a few reasons. Firstly conclusions made sober, rested and with time to reflect are more reliable than conclusions made drunk, late at night, horny and in the heat of the moment, and both parties to any such decisions know this in advance. Secondly wishful thinking (which you could also call self-delusion) plays a role, and before being—to borrow a phrase from Roissy—“pumped and dumped” by a PUA a woman might be a victim of cognitive bias that makes her act as if a long-term relationship with a supportive partner is a possibility whereas with hindsight this bias is less likely to distort her calculations. Thirdly the PUA literature that I have read explicitly advocates playing on these factors by not giving the target time to pause and reflect, and by deflecting questions about the future direction of the relationship rather than answering those questions honestly.
I conclude from this that part of PUA strategy is to attempt to manipulate women into making decisions which the PUA knows the women are less likely to make when they are behaving rationally. So not only do I think that stated regret is more indicative of someone’s reflective preferences than their actions the night before in general, but I also think that PUAs know this too.
As always there will be individual exceptions to the general rule.
But it’s not clear to me that it’s unethical for a salesman to sell to reluctant buyers.
Considering only the two parties directly involved, the salesperson and the buyer, it seems fairly clear to me that on average reluctant buyers are more likely to regret the purchase, and that transactions in which one party regrets the transaction are win/lose and not win/win.
Being a highly effective salesperson is not seen as unethical conduct in our current society, and that tends to very strongly influence people’s moral judgements, but I think from a utilitarian standpoint salesmanship that goes beyond providing information is obviously ethically questionable once you get past the default socialisation we share that salespersons are a normal part of life.
It seems odd to me to suggest a utilitarian should act as though Carols are Dianas.
I’m not completely clear on the Carol/Diana distinction being made here. Could you give me the definitions of these two characters as you were thinking of those definitions at the time you posted the parent?
Irrelevant. Is all fair in love?
Are you claiming that all romantic relationships which include the domination of one party by the other betray trust? I think we have differing definitions of dominance or good behavior.
Sure! First statement:
Second statement:
The first statement is judging a decision solely by its outcome; the second statement is judging a decision by its expected value at time of decision-making. The second methodology is closer to correct than the first.
(In the post with the first statement, it was the conclusion of a hypothetical scenario: Bob knew X about Alice, and had sex with her then didn’t contact her. I wasn’t contesting that win-lose outcomes were inferior to win-win outcomes, but was pointing out that the uncertainties involved are significant for any discussion of the subject. There’s no reason to give others autonomy in an omniscient utilitarian framework: just get their utility function and run the numbers for them. In real life, however, autonomy is a major part of any interactions or decision-making, in large part because we cannot have omniscience.)
That does not seem reasonable. Alices may be up for one night stands, but they only have sex with at most one guy a night. The challenge is being that guy.
See, ah, I think I’m against advocating deliberately unethical behavior / defection on LW.
Prude. :P
The question is what ethical standard to use. Whether or not exaggeration is unfair in matters of romance has not been established, and I would argue that exaggeration has a far more entrenched position than radical honesty.
That is, I would argue that not exaggerating your desirability as a mate is defection, rather than cooperation, and defection of the lose-lose variety rather than the win-lose variety.
That’s… not what you said.
There’s a big difference between asserting something is “irrelevant” versus “incorrect” or “unestablished”.
The treatment of ethics in PUA threads makes me somewhat nervous.
What was irrelevant is that deceit is unethical in many spheres of life. If deceit is unethical for a scientist* but ethical for a general, then knowing that deceit is unethical for a scientist is irrelevant if discussing generals.
What has not been established is whether romance is more like science or war. I think the former position is far weaker than the latter.
* I had a hard time coming up with any role in which any form of deceit is questionable, and thus I suppose if I were out for points I would question the correctness of the assertion, rather than merely its relevance. Even for scientists, exaggeration- the original behavior under question- is often ethical.
Let me check… nope, it looks like utilitarian ethics holds that ethical actions are those that maximise positive outcomes (however defined) factoring in the consequences for all stakeholders. I can’t see anything in there excluding actions or outcomes related to sex from the usual sorts of calculations. So I’m going to go ahead and say that the answer is no from a utilitarian perspective.
If we can exclude those cases where one partner or another honestly and explicitly expresses a free, informed and rational preference to be dominated then mostly yes.
(From a utilitarian perspective we have to at least be philosophically open to the idea that a person who is sufficiently bad at managing their utility might be better off being dominated against their will by a sufficiently altruistic dominator. See The Taming of the Shrew or Overboard. Such cases are atypical).
I have located the source of the confusion. What I actually said in the earlier post was this:
“t might well be that Bob has neither the interest not the ability to sustain a mutually optimal ongoing relationship with Alice and in that case the utility-maximising path from that point forward and hence the ethical option is for Bob to leave and not contact Alice again. However if Bob knew in advance that this was the case and had reason to believe that Alice’s utility function placed a negative value on participating in a one night stand with a person who was not interested in a long-term relationship then Bob behaved unethically in getting to this position since he knowingly brought about a negative-utility outcome for a moral stakeholder.”
I was not judging a situation solely on its outcome, because it was an if/then statement explicitly predicated on Bob knowing in advance that Alice’s utility function would take a major hit.
I guess you just lost track of the context and thought I’d said something I hadn’t. Are we back on the same page together now?
Possibly the recency effect of having skimmed one of Roissy’s blog posts where he specifically singled out for ridicule a female blogger who was expressing regret and confusion after a one night stand colours my recollection, but I am sure I have read PUA materials in the past that had specific sections dedicated to the problem of overcoming the resistance of women who had a preference not to engage in sex on the first/second/nth date, a preference that is certainly not inherently irrational and which seems intuitively likely to correlate with a high probability of regretting a one night stand if it does not turn into an ongoing, happy relationship.
Speaking more broadly a stereo salesperson maximises their sales by selling a stereo to every customer who walks in wanting to buy a stereo, and selling a stereo to as many customers as possible who walk in not wanting to buy a stereo. I’m sure they would prefer all their customers to be the first kind but you maximise your income by getting the most out of both. Game-theory-rational PUAs who don’t have Alices on tap, or a reliable way of filtering out Carols, or who just plain find some Carols attractive and want to sleep with them, would out of either necessity or preference have an interest in maximising their per-Carol chances of bedding a Carol.
It should be noted that, from the perspective of a utilitarian agent in certain environments, it may be the utilitarian action to self-modify into a non-utilitarian agent. That is, an unmodified utilitarian agent participating in certain interactions with non-utilitarian agents may create greater utility by self-modifying into a non-utilitarian agent.
(This seems obviously true. I removed the downvote!)
How prevalent do you think those cases are?
Did what you wrote agree with the parenthetical paragraph I wrote explaining my interpretation? If so, we’re on the same page.
Let’s go back to a question I asked a while back that wasn’t answered that is now relevant again, and explore it a little more deeply. What is a utility function? It rank orders actions*. Why do you think stating regret is more indicative of utility than actions taken? If, in the morning, someone claims they prefer X but at night they do ~X, then it seems that it is easier to discount their words than their actions. (An agent who prefers vice at night and virtue during the day is, rather than being inconsistent, trying to get the best of both worlds.)
(As well, Augustine’s prayer is relevant here: Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.).
*Typically, utility functions are computed by assigning values to consequences, then figuring out the expected value of actions, but in order to make practical measurements it has to be considered with regards to actions.
Right. But it’s not clear to me that it’s unethical for a salesman to sell to reluctant buyers. If you consider a third woman- Diana- who does not agree to have sex on the first date, then both of us would agree that having sex with Diana on the first date would be unethical, just like robbing someone and leaving them a stereo in exchange would be unethical. But pursuing Diana would not be, especially if it’s hard to tell the difference between her and Carol (or Alice) at first glance. Both Carols and Alices have an incentive to seem like Dianas while dating (also car-buying, though not stereo-buying), and so this isn’t an easy problem.
It seems odd to me to suggest a utilitarian should act as though Carols are Dianas.
Interesting question! However I think that we’d need to agree on a definition of “dominated” before any estimate would be meaningful. I’m happy to supply my estimate of prevalence for any definition that suits you.
For the definition I had in mind, which might be something like “in a relationship where one partner routinely makes the majority of important decisions on the basis of superior status” I would be surprised if it was below 0.1% or above 5%.
Well no, I wouldn’t agree with that either, but that’s a separate issue. I don’t think it can be philosophically consistent to apply techniques which purportedly manipulate people by spoofing social signals that act on an unconscious level, distorting their sense of time and so forth and then excuse this on the basis that the agent you are manipulating has autonomy. If they had autonomy in the sense that excused you for attempts at manipulation you could not manipulate them, and if you can manipulate them then they lack the kind of strong autonomy that would give you a moral blank cheque.
I think it’s more indicative for a few reasons. Firstly conclusions made sober, rested and with time to reflect are more reliable than conclusions made drunk, late at night, horny and in the heat of the moment, and both parties to any such decisions know this in advance. Secondly wishful thinking (which you could also call self-delusion) plays a role, and before being—to borrow a phrase from Roissy—“pumped and dumped” by a PUA a woman might be a victim of cognitive bias that makes her act as if a long-term relationship with a supportive partner is a possibility whereas with hindsight this bias is less likely to distort her calculations. Thirdly the PUA literature that I have read explicitly advocates playing on these factors by not giving the target time to pause and reflect, and by deflecting questions about the future direction of the relationship rather than answering those questions honestly.
I conclude from this that part of PUA strategy is to attempt to manipulate women into making decisions which the PUA knows the women are less likely to make when they are behaving rationally. So not only do I think that stated regret is more indicative of someone’s reflective preferences than their actions the night before in general, but I also think that PUAs know this too.
As always there will be individual exceptions to the general rule.
Considering only the two parties directly involved, the salesperson and the buyer, it seems fairly clear to me that on average reluctant buyers are more likely to regret the purchase, and that transactions in which one party regrets the transaction are win/lose and not win/win.
Being a highly effective salesperson is not seen as unethical conduct in our current society, and that tends to very strongly influence people’s moral judgements, but I think from a utilitarian standpoint salesmanship that goes beyond providing information is obviously ethically questionable once you get past the default socialisation we share that salespersons are a normal part of life.
I’m not completely clear on the Carol/Diana distinction being made here. Could you give me the definitions of these two characters as you were thinking of those definitions at the time you posted the parent?