After finishing the sequence, I’m in the odd position where most of my thoughts aren’t about the sequence itself, but rather about why I think you didn’t actually explain why people claim to be conscious. So it’s strange because it means I’m gonna talk a whole bunch about what you didn’t write about, rather than what you did write about. I do think it’s still worth writing this comment, but with the major disclaimer/apology that I realize most of this isn’t actually a response to the substance of your arguments.
First to clarify, the way I think about this is that there’s two relevant axes along which to decompose the problem of consciousness:
the easy vs. hard axis, which is essentially about the describing the coarse functional behavior vs. why it exists at all; and
the [no-prefix] vs. meta axis, which is about explaining the thing itself vs. why people talk about the thing. So for every X, the meta problem of X is “explain why people talk about X”
(So this gives four problems: the easy problem, the hard problem, the easy meta problem, and the hard meta problem.)
I’ve said in this comment that I’m convinced the meta problem is sufficient to solve the entire problem. And I very much stand by that, so I don’t think you have to solve the hard problem—but you do have to solve the hard meta problem! Like, you actually have to explain why people claim to be conscious, not just why they report the coarse profile of functional properties! And (I’m sure you see where this is going), I think you’ve only addressed the easy meta problem throughout this sequence.
Part of the reason why this is relevant is because you’ve said in your introductory post that you want to address this (which I translate to the meta problem in my terminology):
STEP 1: Explain the chain-of-causation in the physical universe that leads to self-reports about consciousness, free will, etc.—and not just people’s declarations that those things exist at all, but also all the specific properties that people ascribe to those things.
Imo you actually did explain why people talk about free will,[1] so you’ve already delivered on at least half of this. Which is just to say that, again, this is not really a critique, but I do think it’s worth explaining why I don’t think you’ve delivered on the other half.
Alright, so why do I think that you didn’t address the hard meta problem? Well, post #2 is about conscious awareness so it gets the closest, but you only really talk about how there is a serial processing stream in the brain whose contents roughly correspond to what we claim is in awareness—which I’d argue is just the coarse functional behavior, i.e., the macro problem. This doesn’t seem very related to the hard meta problem because I can imagine either one of the problems not existing without the other. I.e., I can imagine that (a) people do claim to be conscious but in a very different way, and (b) people don’t claim to be conscious, but their high-level functional recollection does match the model you describe in the post. And if that’s the case, then by definition they’re independent.
A possible objection to the above would be that the hard and easy meta problem aren’t really distinct—like, perhaps people do just claim to be conscious because they have this serial processing stream, and attempts to separate the two are conceptually confused...
… but I’m convinced that this isn’t true. One reason is just that, if you actually ask camp #2 people, I think they’ll tell you that the problem isn’t really about the macro functional behavior of awareness. But the more important reason is the hard meta problem can be considered in just a single sensory modality! So for example, with vision, there’s the fact that people don’t just obtain intangible information about their surroundings but claim to see continuous images.
Copying the above terminology, we could phrase the hard problem of seeing as explaining why people see images, and the hard meta problem of seeing as explaining why people claim to see images.[2] (And once again, I’d argue it’s fine/sufficient to only answer the meta problem—but only if you do, in fact, answer the meta problem!) Then since the hard meta problem of seeing is a subset of the hard meta problem of consciousness, and since the contents of your post very much don’t say anything about this, it seems like they can’t really have conclusively addressed the hard meta problem in general.
Again, not really a critique of the actual posts; the annoying thing for me is just that I think the hard meta problem is where all the juicy insights about the brain are hidden, so I’m continuously disappointed that no one talks about it. ImE this is a very consistent pattern where whenever someone says they’ll talk about it, they then end up not actually talking it, usually missing it even more than you did here (cough Dennett cough). Actually there is at least one phenomenon you do talk about that I think is very interesting (namely equanimity), but I’ll make a separate comment for that.
Alas I don’t view Free Will as related to consciousness. I understand putting them into the same bucket of “intuitive self-models with questionable veridicality”. But the problem is that people who meditate—which arguably is like paying more attention—tend to be less likely to think Free Will is real, but I’d strongly expect that they’re more likely to say that consciousness is real, rather than less. (GPT-4 says there’s no data on this; would be very interesting to make a survey correlating camp#1 vs. camp#2 views by how much someone has meditated, though proving causation will be tricky.) If this is true, imo they don’t seem to belong into the same category.
Also, I think the hard meta problem of seeing has the major advantage that people tend to agree it’s real—many people claim not to experience any qualia, but everyone seems to agree that they seem to see images. Basically I think talking about seeing is just a really neat way to reduce conceptual confusion while retaining the hard part of the problem. And then there’s also blindsight where people claim not to see and retain visual processing capabilities—but much very much reduced capabilities! -- so there’s some preliminary evidence that it’s possible to tease out the empirical/causal effects of the hard meta problem.
Well, post #2 is about conscious awareness so it gets the closest, but you only really talk about how there is a serial processing stream in the brain whose contents roughly correspond to what we claim is in awareness—which I’d argue is just the coarse functional behavior, i.e., the macro problem. This doesn’t seem very related to the hard meta problem because I can imagine either one of the problems not existing without the other. I.e., I can imagine that (a) people do claim to be conscious but in a very different way, and (b) people don’t claim to be conscious, but their high-level functional recollection does match the model you describe in the post. And if that’s the case, then by definition they’re independent. … if you actually ask camp #2 people, I think they’ll tell you that the problem isn’t really about the macro functional behavior of awareness
The way intuitive models work (I claim) is that there are concepts, and associations / implications / connotations of those concepts. There’s a core intuitive concept “carrot”, and it has implications about shape, color, taste, botanical origin, etc. And if you specify the shape, color, etc. of a thing, and they’re somewhat different from most normal carrots, then people will feel like there’s a question “but now is it really a carrot?” that goes beyond the complete list of its actual properties. But there isn’t, really. Once you list all the properties, there’s no additional unanswered question. It just feels like there is. This is an aspect of how intuitive models work, but it doesn’t veridically correspond to anything of substance.
So anyway, if “consciousness” has connotations / implications A,B,C,D,E, etc. (it’s “subjective”, it goes away under general anesthesia, it’s connected to memory, etc.), then people will feel like there’s an additional question “but is it really consciousness”, that still needs to be answered, above and beyond the specific properties A,B,C,D,E.
And likewise, if you ask a person “Can you imagine something that lacks A,B,C,D,E, but still constitutes ‘consciousness’”, then they may well say “yeah I can imagine that”. But we shouldn’t take that report to be particularly meaningful.
Copying the above terminology, we could phrase the hard problem of seeing as explaining why people see images, and the hard meta problem of seeing as explaining why people claim to see images.
As in Post 2, there’s an intuitive concept that I’m calling “conscious awareness” that captures the fact that the cortex has different generative models active at different times. Different parts of the cortex wind up building different kinds of models—S1 builds generative models of somatosensory data, M1 builds generative models of motor programs, and so on. But here I want to talk about the areas in the overlap between the “ventral visual stream” and the “global workspace”, which is mainly in and around the inferior temporal gyrus, “IT”.
When we’re paying attention to what we’re looking at, IT would have some generative model active that optimally balances between (1) priors about the visual world, and (2) the visual input right now. Alternatively, if we’re zoning out from what we’re looking at, and instead using visual imagination or visual memory, then (2) is off (i.e., the active IT model can be wildly incompatible with immediate visual input), but (1) is still relevant, and instead there needs to be consistency between IT and episodic memory areas, or various other possibilities.
So anyway,
In the territory, “Model A is currently active in IT” is a very different situation from “Model B is currently active in the superior temporal gyrus” or whatever.
Correspondingly, in the map, we wind up with the intuition that “X is in awareness as a vision” is very different from “Y is in awareness as a sound”, and both are very different from “Z is in awareness as a plan”, etc.
You brought up blindsight. That would be where the model “X is in awareness as a vision” seems wrong. That model would entail a specific set of predictions about the state of IT, and it turns out that those predictions are false. However, some other part of awareness is still getting visual information via some other pathway. (Visual information gets into various parts of the cortex via more than one pathway.) So the blindsight patient might describe their experience as “I don’t see anything, but for some reason I feel like there’s motion on the left side”, or whatever. And we can map that utterance into a correct description of what was happening in their cortex.
Separately, as for the hard problem of consciousness, you might be surprised to learn that I actually haven’t thought about it much and still find it kinda confusing. I had written something into an early draft of post 1 but wound up deleting it before publication. Here’s what it said:
Start with an analogy to physics. There’s a Stephen Hawking quote I like:
> “Even if there is only one possible unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? The usual approach of science of constructing a mathematical model cannot answer the questions of why there should be a universe for the model to describe. Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing?”
I could be wrong, but Hawking’s question seems to be pointing at a real mystery. But as Hawking says, there seems to be no possible observation or scientific experiment that would shed light on that mystery. Whatever the true laws of physics are in our universe, every possible experiment would just confirm, yup, those are the true laws of physics. It wouldn’t help us figure out what if anything “breathes fire” into those laws. What would progress on the “breathes fire” question even look like?? (See Tegmark’s Mathematical Universe book for the only serious attempt I know of, which I still find unsatisfying. He basically says that all possible laws of the universe have fire breathed into them. But even if that’s true, I still want to ask … why?)
By analogy, I’m tempted to say that an illusionist account can explain every possible experiment about consciousness, including our belief that consciousness exists at all, and all its properties, and all the philosophy books on it, and so on … but yet I’m tempted to still say that there’s some “breathes fire” / “why is there something rather than nothing” type question left unanswered by the illusionist account. This unanswered question should not be called “the hard problem”, but rather “the impossible problem”, in the sense that, just like Hawking’s question above, there seems to be no possible scientific measurement or introspective experiment and that could shed light on it—all possible such data, including the very fact that I’m writing this paragraph, are already screened off by the illusionist framework.
The way intuitive models work (I claim) is that there are concepts, and associations / implications / connotations of those concepts. There’s a core intuitive concept “carrot”, and it has implications about shape, color, taste, botanical origin, etc. And if you specify the shape, color, etc. of a thing, and they’re somewhat different from most normal carrots, then people will feel like there’s a question “but now is it really a carrot?” that goes beyond the complete list of its actual properties. But there isn’t, really. Once you list all the properties, there’s no additional unanswered question. It just feels like there is. This is an aspect of how intuitive models work, but it doesn’t veridically correspond to anything of substance.
Mhhhmhh. Let me see if I can work with the carrot example to where it fits my view of the debate.
A botanist is charged with filling a small field with plants, any plants. A chemist hands him a perfect plastic replica of a carrot, perfect in shape, color, texture, and (miraculously) taste. The botanist says that it’s not a plant. The chemist, who has never seen plants other than carrots, points out the matching qualities to the plants he knows. The botanist says okay but those are just properties that a particular kind of plant happens to have, they’re not the integral property of what makes something a plant. “The core intuitive concept ‘plant’ has implications about shape, color, texture, taste, et cetera”, says the chemist. “If all those properties are met, people may think there’s an additional question about the true plant-ness of the object, but [...].” The botanist points out that he is not talking about an intangible, immeasurable, or non-physical property but rather about the fact that this carrot won’t grow and spread seeds when planted into the earth. The chemist, having conversed extensively with people who define plants primarily by their shape, color, texture, and taste (which are all those of carrots because they’ve also not seen other plants) just sighs, rolling his eyes at the attempt to redefine plant-ness to be entirely about this one obscure feature that also just happens to be the most difficult one to test.
Which is to say that I get—or at least I think I get—the sense that we’re successfully explaining important features of consciousness and the case for linking it to anything special is clearly diminishing—but I don’t think it’s correct. When I say that the hard meta problem of seeing probably contains ~90% of the difficulty of the hard meta problem of consciousness whereas the meta problem of free will contains 0% and the problem of awareness ~2%, then I’m not changing my model in response to new evidence. I’ve always thought Free Will was nonsense!
(The botanist separately points out that there in fact other plants with different shape, texture, and taste, although they all do have green leaves, to which the chemist replies that ?????. This is just to come back to the point that people report advanced meditative states that lose many of the common properties of consciousness, including Free Will, the feeling of having a self (I’ve experienced that one!) and even the presence of any information content whatsoever, and afaik they tend to be more “impressed”, roughly speaking, with consciousness as a result of those experiences, not less.)
[seeing stuff]
Attempt to rephrase: the brain has several different intuitive models in different places. These models have different causal profiles, which explains how they can correspond to different introspective reports. One model corresponds to the person talking about smelling stuff. Another corresponds to the person talking about seeing stuff. Yet another corresponds to the person talking about obtaining vague intuitions about the presence and location of objects. The latter two are triggered by visual inputs. Blindsight turns off the second but not the third.
If this is roughly correct, my response to it is that proposing different categories isn’t enough because the distinction between visually vivid experience and vague intuitions isn’t just that we happen to call them by different labels. (And the analogous thing is true for every other sensory modality, although the case is the least confusing with vision.) Claiming to see a visual image is different from claiming to have a vague intuition in all the ways that it’s different; people claim to see something made out of pixels, which can look beautiful or ugly, seems to have form, depth, spatial location, etc. They also claim to perceive a full visual image constantly, which presumably isn’t possible(?) since it would contain more information than can actually be there, so a solution has to explain how this illusion of having access to so much information is possible. (Is awareness really a serial processor in any meaningful way if it can contain as much information at once as a visual image seems to contain?)
(I didn’t actually intend to get into a discussion about any of this though, I was just using it as a demonstration of why I think the hard metaproblem of consciousness has at least one real subset and hence isn’t empty.)
Hard Problem
Yeah, I mean, since I’m on board with reducing everything to the meta problem, the hard problem itself can just be sidestepped entirely.
But since you brought it up, I’ll just shamelessly use this opportunity to make a philosophical point that I’ve never seen anyone else make, which is that imo the common belief that no empirical data can help distinguish an illusionist from a realist universe… is actually false! The reason is that consciousness is a high-level phenomenon in the illusionist universe and a low phenomenon in at least some versions of the realist universe, and we have different priors for how high-level vs. low-level phenomena behave.
The analogy I like is, imagine there’s a drug that makes people see ghosts, and some think these ghosts tap into the fundamental equations of physics, whereas others think the brain is just making stuff up. One way you can go about this is to have a thousand people describe their ghosts in detail. If you find that the brightness of hallucinated ghosts is consistently proportional to their height, then you’ve pretty much disproved the “the brain is just making stuff up hypothesis”. (Whereas if you find no such relationships, you’ve strengthened the hypothesis.) This is difficult to operationalize for consciousness, but I think determining the presence of absence of elegant mathematical structure within human consciousness is, at least in principle, an answer to the question of “[w]hat would progress on the ‘breathes fire’ question even look like”.
people report advanced meditative states that lose many of the common properties of consciousness, including Free Will, the feeling of having a self (I’ve experienced that one!) and even the presence of any information content whatsoever, and afaik they tend to be more “impressed”, roughly speaking, with consciousness as a result of those experiences, not less.
I think that’s compatible with my models, because those meditators still have a cortex, in which patterns of neurons can be firing or not firing at any particular time. And that’s the core aspect of the “territory” which corresponds to “conscious awareness” in the “map”. No amount of meditation, drugs, etc., can change that.
Attempt to rephrase: the brain has several different intuitive models in different places. These models have different causal profiles, which explains how they can correspond to different introspective reports.
Hmm, I think that’s not really what I would say. I would say that that there’s a concept “conscious awareness” (in the map) that corresponds to the fact (in the territory) that different patterns of neurons can be active or inactive in the cortex at different times. And then there are more specific aspects of “conscious awareness”, like “visual awareness”, which corresponds to the fact that the cortex has different parts (motor cortex etc.), and different patterns of neurons can be active or inactive in any given part of the cortex at different times.
…Maybe this next part will help ↓
the distinction between visually vivid experience and vague intuitions isn’t just that we happen to call them by different labels … Claiming to see a visual image is different from claiming to have a vague intuition in all the ways that it’s different
The contents of IT are really truly different from the contents of LIP [I didn’t check where the visual information gets to the cortex in blindsight, I’m just guessing LIP for concreteness]. Querying IT is a different operation than querying LIP. IT holds different types of information than LIP does, and does different things with that information, including leading to different visceral reactions, motivations, semantic knowledge, etc., all of which correspond to neuroscientific differences in how IT versus LIP is wired up.
All these differences between IT vs LIP are in the territory, not the map. So I definitely agree that “the distinction [between seeing and vague-sense-of-presence] isn’t just that we happen to call them by different labels”. They’re different like how the concept “hand” is different from the concept “foot”—a distinction on the map downstream of a distinction in the territory.
Is awareness really a serial processor in any meaningful way if it can contain as much information at once as a visual image seems to contain?
I’m sure you’re aware that people feel like they have a broader continuous awareness of their visual field than they actully do. There are lots of demonstrations of this—e.g. change blindness, selective attention test, the fact that peripheral vision has terrible resolution and terrible color perception and makes faces look creepy. There’s a refrigerator light illusion thing—if X is in my peripheral vision, then maybe it’s currently active as just a little pointer in a tiny sub-area of my cortex, but as soon as I turn my attention to X it immediately unfolds in full detail across the global workspace.
The cortex has 10 billion neurons which is more than enough to do some things in parallel—e.g. I can have a song stuck in my head in auditory cortex, while tapping my foot with motor cortex, while doing math homework with other parts of the cortex. But there’s also a serial aspect to it—you can’t parse a legal document and try to remember your friend’s name at the exact same moment.
Does that help? Sorry if I’m not responding to what you see as most important, happy to keep going. :)
(You did respond to all the important parts, rest of my comment is very much optional.)
I’m sure you’re aware that people feel like they have a broader continuous awareness of their visual field than they actully do. There are lots of demonstrations of this—e.g. change blindness, selective attention test, the fact that peripheral vision has terrible resolution and terrible color perception and makes faces look creepy. There’s a refrigerator light illusion thing—if X is in my peripheral vision, then maybe it’s currently active as just a little pointer in a tiny sub-area of my cortex, but as soon as I turn my attention to X it immediately unfolds in full detail across the global workspace.
Yes—and my point was that appealing to these phenomena is the kind of thing you will probably have to do to explain the meta problem of seeing. Which raises all kinds of issues—for example, change blindness by itself doesn’t logically prove anything, since it’s possible not to notice that something changed even if it was represented. Only the reverse conclusion is valid—if a subject can tell that X changed, then X was in awareness, but if they can’t tell, X may or may not have been in awareness. So teasing out exactly how much information is really present in awareness, given the positive and negative evidence, is a pretty big rabbit hole. (Poor resolution in peripheral vision does prove absence of information, but as with the memory example I’ve complained about in post #2, this is an example of something people don’t endorse under reflection anyway, so it doesn’t get you very far. Like, there is a very, very big difference between arguing that peripheral resolution is poor, which people will agree with as soon as they actually pay attention to their peripheral vision for the first time, and arguing that the continuous visual image they think they see is not really there, which most people will stubbornly disagree with regardless of how much attention they pay to it.)
Anyway, that’s the only claim I was making—I was only trying to go as far as “this is why I think the problem is nontrivial and you haven’t solved it yet”, not “and that’s why you can’t solve it”.
The contents of IT are really truly different from the contents of LIP [I didn’t check where the visual information gets to the cortex in blindsight, I’m just guessing LIP for concreteness]. Querying IT is a different operation than querying LIP. IT holds different types of information than LIP does, and does different things with that information, including leading to different visceral reactions, motivations, semantic knowledge, etc., all of which correspond to neuroscientific differences in how IT versus LIP is wired up.
All these differences between IT vs LIP are in the territory, not the map. So I definitely agree that “the distinction [between seeing and vague-sense-of-presence] isn’t just that we happen to call them by different labels”. They’re different like how the concept “hand” is different from the concept “foot”—a distinction on the map downstream of a distinction in the territory.
Right, and I agree that this makes it apriori plausible that they could account for the differences in how people talk about, e.g., vivid seeing vs. intangible intuitions. But it doesn’t prove that they do, it only shows that this is the kind of explanation that, on first glance, looks like it could work. To actually solve the meta problem, you still have to do the work of explaining all the properties of introspective reports, which requires going into a lot of detail.
As of above, this is the only claim I was making—I’m not saying any of these issues are provably impossible with your approach, I’m only saying that your approach hasn’t provided a full solution yet. (And that I genuinely think most of the difficulty happens to be in these still unaddressed details; this was the point of the carrot/plant analogy.)
I think that’s compatible with my models, because those meditators still have a cortex, in which patterns of neurons can be firing or not firing at any particular time. And that’s the core aspect of the “territory” which corresponds to “conscious awareness” in the “map”. No amount of meditation, drugs, etc., can change that.
Fair enough, but I think it does show that free will isn’t that central of a piece.
Start with an analogy to physics. There’s a Stephen Hawking quote I like:
> “Even if there is only one possible unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? The usual approach of science of constructing a mathematical model cannot answer the questions of why there should be a universe for the model to describe. Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing?”
I could be wrong, but Hawking’s question seems to be pointing at a real mystery. But as Hawking says, there seems to be no possible observation or scientific experiment that would shed light on that mystery. Whatever the true laws of physics are in our universe, every possible experiment would just confirm, yup, those are the true laws of physics. It wouldn’t help us figure out what if anything “breathes fire” into those laws. What would progress on the “breathes fire” question even look like?? (See Tegmark’s Mathematical Universe book for the only serious attempt I know of, which I still find unsatisfying. He basically says that all possible laws of the universe have fire breathed into them. But even if that’s true, I still want to ask … why?)
By analogy, I’m tempted to say that an illusionist account can explain every possible experiment about consciousness, including our belief that consciousness exists at all, and all its properties, and all the philosophy books on it, and so on … but yet I’m tempted to still say that there’s some “breathes fire” / “why is there something rather than nothing” type question left unanswered by the illusionist account. This unanswered question should not be called “the hard problem”, but rather “the impossible problem”, in the sense that, just like Hawking’s question above, there seems to be no possible scientific measurement or introspective experiment and that could shed light on it—all possible such data, including the very fact that I’m writing this paragraph, are already screened off by the illusionist framework.
Well, hmm, maybe that’s stupid. I dunno.
My provisional answer is “An infinity of FLOPs/compute backs up the equations to make sure it works.”
After finishing the sequence, I’m in the odd position where most of my thoughts aren’t about the sequence itself, but rather about why I think you didn’t actually explain why people claim to be conscious. So it’s strange because it means I’m gonna talk a whole bunch about what you didn’t write about, rather than what you did write about. I do think it’s still worth writing this comment, but with the major disclaimer/apology that I realize most of this isn’t actually a response to the substance of your arguments.
First to clarify, the way I think about this is that there’s two relevant axes along which to decompose the problem of consciousness:
the easy vs. hard axis, which is essentially about the describing the coarse functional behavior vs. why it exists at all; and
the [no-prefix] vs. meta axis, which is about explaining the thing itself vs. why people talk about the thing. So for every X, the meta problem of X is “explain why people talk about X”
(So this gives four problems: the easy problem, the hard problem, the easy meta problem, and the hard meta problem.)
I’ve said in this comment that I’m convinced the meta problem is sufficient to solve the entire problem. And I very much stand by that, so I don’t think you have to solve the hard problem—but you do have to solve the hard meta problem! Like, you actually have to explain why people claim to be conscious, not just why they report the coarse profile of functional properties! And (I’m sure you see where this is going), I think you’ve only addressed the easy meta problem throughout this sequence.
Part of the reason why this is relevant is because you’ve said in your introductory post that you want to address this (which I translate to the meta problem in my terminology):
Imo you actually did explain why people talk about free will,[1] so you’ve already delivered on at least half of this. Which is just to say that, again, this is not really a critique, but I do think it’s worth explaining why I don’t think you’ve delivered on the other half.
Alright, so why do I think that you didn’t address the hard meta problem? Well, post #2 is about conscious awareness so it gets the closest, but you only really talk about how there is a serial processing stream in the brain whose contents roughly correspond to what we claim is in awareness—which I’d argue is just the coarse functional behavior, i.e., the macro problem. This doesn’t seem very related to the hard meta problem because I can imagine either one of the problems not existing without the other. I.e., I can imagine that (a) people do claim to be conscious but in a very different way, and (b) people don’t claim to be conscious, but their high-level functional recollection does match the model you describe in the post. And if that’s the case, then by definition they’re independent.
A possible objection to the above would be that the hard and easy meta problem aren’t really distinct—like, perhaps people do just claim to be conscious because they have this serial processing stream, and attempts to separate the two are conceptually confused...
… but I’m convinced that this isn’t true. One reason is just that, if you actually ask camp #2 people, I think they’ll tell you that the problem isn’t really about the macro functional behavior of awareness. But the more important reason is the hard meta problem can be considered in just a single sensory modality! So for example, with vision, there’s the fact that people don’t just obtain intangible information about their surroundings but claim to see continuous images.
Copying the above terminology, we could phrase the hard problem of seeing as explaining why people see images, and the hard meta problem of seeing as explaining why people claim to see images.[2] (And once again, I’d argue it’s fine/sufficient to only answer the meta problem—but only if you do, in fact, answer the meta problem!) Then since the hard meta problem of seeing is a subset of the hard meta problem of consciousness, and since the contents of your post very much don’t say anything about this, it seems like they can’t really have conclusively addressed the hard meta problem in general.
Again, not really a critique of the actual posts; the annoying thing for me is just that I think the hard meta problem is where all the juicy insights about the brain are hidden, so I’m continuously disappointed that no one talks about it. ImE this is a very consistent pattern where whenever someone says they’ll talk about it, they then end up not actually talking it, usually missing it even more than you did here (cough Dennett cough). Actually there is at least one phenomenon you do talk about that I think is very interesting (namely equanimity), but I’ll make a separate comment for that.
Alas I don’t view Free Will as related to consciousness. I understand putting them into the same bucket of “intuitive self-models with questionable veridicality”. But the problem is that people who meditate—which arguably is like paying more attention—tend to be less likely to think Free Will is real, but I’d strongly expect that they’re more likely to say that consciousness is real, rather than less. (GPT-4 says there’s no data on this; would be very interesting to make a survey correlating camp#1 vs. camp#2 views by how much someone has meditated, though proving causation will be tricky.) If this is true, imo they don’t seem to belong into the same category.
Also, I think the hard meta problem of seeing has the major advantage that people tend to agree it’s real—many people claim not to experience any qualia, but everyone seems to agree that they seem to see images. Basically I think talking about seeing is just a really neat way to reduce conceptual confusion while retaining the hard part of the problem. And then there’s also blindsight where people claim not to see and retain visual processing capabilities—but much very much reduced capabilities! -- so there’s some preliminary evidence that it’s possible to tease out the empirical/causal effects of the hard meta problem.
Thanks for the detailed comment!
The way intuitive models work (I claim) is that there are concepts, and associations / implications / connotations of those concepts. There’s a core intuitive concept “carrot”, and it has implications about shape, color, taste, botanical origin, etc. And if you specify the shape, color, etc. of a thing, and they’re somewhat different from most normal carrots, then people will feel like there’s a question “but now is it really a carrot?” that goes beyond the complete list of its actual properties. But there isn’t, really. Once you list all the properties, there’s no additional unanswered question. It just feels like there is. This is an aspect of how intuitive models work, but it doesn’t veridically correspond to anything of substance.
The old Yudkowsky post “How An Algorithm Feels From Inside” is a great discussion of this point.
So anyway, if “consciousness” has connotations / implications A,B,C,D,E, etc. (it’s “subjective”, it goes away under general anesthesia, it’s connected to memory, etc.), then people will feel like there’s an additional question “but is it really consciousness”, that still needs to be answered, above and beyond the specific properties A,B,C,D,E.
And likewise, if you ask a person “Can you imagine something that lacks A,B,C,D,E, but still constitutes ‘consciousness’”, then they may well say “yeah I can imagine that”. But we shouldn’t take that report to be particularly meaningful.
(…See also Frankish’s “Quining Diet Qualia” (2012).)
As in Post 2, there’s an intuitive concept that I’m calling “conscious awareness” that captures the fact that the cortex has different generative models active at different times. Different parts of the cortex wind up building different kinds of models—S1 builds generative models of somatosensory data, M1 builds generative models of motor programs, and so on. But here I want to talk about the areas in the overlap between the “ventral visual stream” and the “global workspace”, which is mainly in and around the inferior temporal gyrus, “IT”.
When we’re paying attention to what we’re looking at, IT would have some generative model active that optimally balances between (1) priors about the visual world, and (2) the visual input right now. Alternatively, if we’re zoning out from what we’re looking at, and instead using visual imagination or visual memory, then (2) is off (i.e., the active IT model can be wildly incompatible with immediate visual input), but (1) is still relevant, and instead there needs to be consistency between IT and episodic memory areas, or various other possibilities.
So anyway,
In the territory, “Model A is currently active in IT” is a very different situation from “Model B is currently active in the superior temporal gyrus” or whatever.
Correspondingly, in the map, we wind up with the intuition that “X is in awareness as a vision” is very different from “Y is in awareness as a sound”, and both are very different from “Z is in awareness as a plan”, etc.
You brought up blindsight. That would be where the model “X is in awareness as a vision” seems wrong. That model would entail a specific set of predictions about the state of IT, and it turns out that those predictions are false. However, some other part of awareness is still getting visual information via some other pathway. (Visual information gets into various parts of the cortex via more than one pathway.) So the blindsight patient might describe their experience as “I don’t see anything, but for some reason I feel like there’s motion on the left side”, or whatever. And we can map that utterance into a correct description of what was happening in their cortex.
Separately, as for the hard problem of consciousness, you might be surprised to learn that I actually haven’t thought about it much and still find it kinda confusing. I had written something into an early draft of post 1 but wound up deleting it before publication. Here’s what it said:
Mhhhmhh. Let me see if I can work with the carrot example to where it fits my view of the debate.
A botanist is charged with filling a small field with plants, any plants. A chemist hands him a perfect plastic replica of a carrot, perfect in shape, color, texture, and (miraculously) taste. The botanist says that it’s not a plant. The chemist, who has never seen plants other than carrots, points out the matching qualities to the plants he knows. The botanist says okay but those are just properties that a particular kind of plant happens to have, they’re not the integral property of what makes something a plant. “The core intuitive concept ‘plant’ has implications about shape, color, texture, taste, et cetera”, says the chemist. “If all those properties are met, people may think there’s an additional question about the true plant-ness of the object, but [...].” The botanist points out that he is not talking about an intangible, immeasurable, or non-physical property but rather about the fact that this carrot won’t grow and spread seeds when planted into the earth. The chemist, having conversed extensively with people who define plants primarily by their shape, color, texture, and taste (which are all those of carrots because they’ve also not seen other plants) just sighs, rolling his eyes at the attempt to redefine plant-ness to be entirely about this one obscure feature that also just happens to be the most difficult one to test.
Which is to say that I get—or at least I think I get—the sense that we’re successfully explaining important features of consciousness and the case for linking it to anything special is clearly diminishing—but I don’t think it’s correct. When I say that the hard meta problem of seeing probably contains ~90% of the difficulty of the hard meta problem of consciousness whereas the meta problem of free will contains 0% and the problem of awareness ~2%, then I’m not changing my model in response to new evidence. I’ve always thought Free Will was nonsense!
(The botanist separately points out that there in fact other plants with different shape, texture, and taste, although they all do have green leaves, to which the chemist replies that ?????. This is just to come back to the point that people report advanced meditative states that lose many of the common properties of consciousness, including Free Will, the feeling of having a self (I’ve experienced that one!) and even the presence of any information content whatsoever, and afaik they tend to be more “impressed”, roughly speaking, with consciousness as a result of those experiences, not less.)
Attempt to rephrase: the brain has several different intuitive models in different places. These models have different causal profiles, which explains how they can correspond to different introspective reports. One model corresponds to the person talking about smelling stuff. Another corresponds to the person talking about seeing stuff. Yet another corresponds to the person talking about obtaining vague intuitions about the presence and location of objects. The latter two are triggered by visual inputs. Blindsight turns off the second but not the third.
If this is roughly correct, my response to it is that proposing different categories isn’t enough because the distinction between visually vivid experience and vague intuitions isn’t just that we happen to call them by different labels. (And the analogous thing is true for every other sensory modality, although the case is the least confusing with vision.) Claiming to see a visual image is different from claiming to have a vague intuition in all the ways that it’s different; people claim to see something made out of pixels, which can look beautiful or ugly, seems to have form, depth, spatial location, etc. They also claim to perceive a full visual image constantly, which presumably isn’t possible(?) since it would contain more information than can actually be there, so a solution has to explain how this illusion of having access to so much information is possible. (Is awareness really a serial processor in any meaningful way if it can contain as much information at once as a visual image seems to contain?)
(I didn’t actually intend to get into a discussion about any of this though, I was just using it as a demonstration of why I think the hard metaproblem of consciousness has at least one real subset and hence isn’t empty.)
Yeah, I mean, since I’m on board with reducing everything to the meta problem, the hard problem itself can just be sidestepped entirely.
But since you brought it up, I’ll just shamelessly use this opportunity to make a philosophical point that I’ve never seen anyone else make, which is that imo the common belief that no empirical data can help distinguish an illusionist from a realist universe… is actually false! The reason is that consciousness is a high-level phenomenon in the illusionist universe and a low phenomenon in at least some versions of the realist universe, and we have different priors for how high-level vs. low-level phenomena behave.
The analogy I like is, imagine there’s a drug that makes people see ghosts, and some think these ghosts tap into the fundamental equations of physics, whereas others think the brain is just making stuff up. One way you can go about this is to have a thousand people describe their ghosts in detail. If you find that the brightness of hallucinated ghosts is consistently proportional to their height, then you’ve pretty much disproved the “the brain is just making stuff up hypothesis”. (Whereas if you find no such relationships, you’ve strengthened the hypothesis.) This is difficult to operationalize for consciousness, but I think determining the presence of absence of elegant mathematical structure within human consciousness is, at least in principle, an answer to the question of “[w]hat would progress on the ‘breathes fire’ question even look like”.
Thanks for the comment!
I think that’s compatible with my models, because those meditators still have a cortex, in which patterns of neurons can be firing or not firing at any particular time. And that’s the core aspect of the “territory” which corresponds to “conscious awareness” in the “map”. No amount of meditation, drugs, etc., can change that.
Hmm, I think that’s not really what I would say. I would say that that there’s a concept “conscious awareness” (in the map) that corresponds to the fact (in the territory) that different patterns of neurons can be active or inactive in the cortex at different times. And then there are more specific aspects of “conscious awareness”, like “visual awareness”, which corresponds to the fact that the cortex has different parts (motor cortex etc.), and different patterns of neurons can be active or inactive in any given part of the cortex at different times.
…Maybe this next part will help ↓
The contents of IT are really truly different from the contents of LIP [I didn’t check where the visual information gets to the cortex in blindsight, I’m just guessing LIP for concreteness]. Querying IT is a different operation than querying LIP. IT holds different types of information than LIP does, and does different things with that information, including leading to different visceral reactions, motivations, semantic knowledge, etc., all of which correspond to neuroscientific differences in how IT versus LIP is wired up.
All these differences between IT vs LIP are in the territory, not the map. So I definitely agree that “the distinction [between seeing and vague-sense-of-presence] isn’t just that we happen to call them by different labels”. They’re different like how the concept “hand” is different from the concept “foot”—a distinction on the map downstream of a distinction in the territory.
I’m sure you’re aware that people feel like they have a broader continuous awareness of their visual field than they actully do. There are lots of demonstrations of this—e.g. change blindness, selective attention test, the fact that peripheral vision has terrible resolution and terrible color perception and makes faces look creepy. There’s a refrigerator light illusion thing—if X is in my peripheral vision, then maybe it’s currently active as just a little pointer in a tiny sub-area of my cortex, but as soon as I turn my attention to X it immediately unfolds in full detail across the global workspace.
The cortex has 10 billion neurons which is more than enough to do some things in parallel—e.g. I can have a song stuck in my head in auditory cortex, while tapping my foot with motor cortex, while doing math homework with other parts of the cortex. But there’s also a serial aspect to it—you can’t parse a legal document and try to remember your friend’s name at the exact same moment.
Does that help? Sorry if I’m not responding to what you see as most important, happy to keep going. :)
(You did respond to all the important parts, rest of my comment is very much optional.)
Yes—and my point was that appealing to these phenomena is the kind of thing you will probably have to do to explain the meta problem of seeing. Which raises all kinds of issues—for example, change blindness by itself doesn’t logically prove anything, since it’s possible not to notice that something changed even if it was represented. Only the reverse conclusion is valid—if a subject can tell that X changed, then X was in awareness, but if they can’t tell, X may or may not have been in awareness. So teasing out exactly how much information is really present in awareness, given the positive and negative evidence, is a pretty big rabbit hole. (Poor resolution in peripheral vision does prove absence of information, but as with the memory example I’ve complained about in post #2, this is an example of something people don’t endorse under reflection anyway, so it doesn’t get you very far. Like, there is a very, very big difference between arguing that peripheral resolution is poor, which people will agree with as soon as they actually pay attention to their peripheral vision for the first time, and arguing that the continuous visual image they think they see is not really there, which most people will stubbornly disagree with regardless of how much attention they pay to it.)
Anyway, that’s the only claim I was making—I was only trying to go as far as “this is why I think the problem is nontrivial and you haven’t solved it yet”, not “and that’s why you can’t solve it”.
Right, and I agree that this makes it apriori plausible that they could account for the differences in how people talk about, e.g., vivid seeing vs. intangible intuitions. But it doesn’t prove that they do, it only shows that this is the kind of explanation that, on first glance, looks like it could work. To actually solve the meta problem, you still have to do the work of explaining all the properties of introspective reports, which requires going into a lot of detail.
As of above, this is the only claim I was making—I’m not saying any of these issues are provably impossible with your approach, I’m only saying that your approach hasn’t provided a full solution yet. (And that I genuinely think most of the difficulty happens to be in these still unaddressed details; this was the point of the carrot/plant analogy.)
Fair enough, but I think it does show that free will isn’t that central of a piece.
My provisional answer is “An infinity of FLOPs/compute backs up the equations to make sure it works.”