This argument fails several ways. First as history. Some of the atrocities happened without central organization—e.g., Islamic fundamentalists aren’t all part of any one organization, although they’ve created a variety of more or less hierarchical organizations; the displacement of the Indians (which had essentially nothing to do with religion except as a stock of rationalizations for things people would have done anyway) -- and all the others had important elements of individual initiative.
(I must say I found it amusing that you concede that the crimes against humanity committed by atheist states weren’t solely the fault of religion. When you start saying things like that, you’ve spent much too long seeing arguments as weapons to be used on behalf of “your side”.)
Second, it refutes a position nobody holds. No religionist believes in a flavor of God-implanted moral sense strong enough to overcome all the various temptations to behave immorally; usually they believe quite the opposite, that it was mostly or totally broken by some sort of Fall. If you find yourself triumphantly refuting a view that cannot in any case survive contact with ordinarily accessible reality, you’re probably dealing with strawmen.
I appreciate the strong feedback. Let’s see the points one by one:
Islamic fundamentalists may not be part of the same organization (although a very large percentage of those performing the worst acts of terrorism somewhat identify with al-quaeda or one of its affiliated organizations) but all you need is a common text as a reference point, a shared understanding of how to interpret it and what it implies, and identification with a culture that encourages blind obedience to those perceived implications. And these all exist and tie together the Islamic fundamentalists.
As for displacement of Native Americans, there is a whole religiously-inspired theory about why they were to be displaced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny#Native_Americans) . Yes, of course there were individualistic incentives too, but they were at the very least enabled by religion.
About the use of the word ‘solely’, I simply did not wish to get into the discussion about whether religion had any involvement at all or not. Establishing that it did not have sole responsibility was enough to proceed with my argument. I think you are reading my sentence in the reverse, as in “if it didn’t have sole responsibility, it must have had partial responsibility” but this claim is nowhere to be found in the text. My claim allows for religion to have some responsibility or no responsibility at all.
Finally, my point is that the tribal instinct routinely overrides the moral instinct. This requires additional mental contortions on the part of religion (reference to a fall that is completely incompatible with evolution, essentially resorting to a different argument) whereas it fits naturally with the atheist claim that morality evolved.
Again, thanks for giving me the chance to respond/clarify.
This argument fails several ways. First as history. Some of the atrocities happened without central organization—e.g., Islamic fundamentalists aren’t all part of any one organization, although they’ve created a variety of more or less hierarchical organizations; the displacement of the Indians (which had essentially nothing to do with religion except as a stock of rationalizations for things people would have done anyway) -- and all the others had important elements of individual initiative.
(I must say I found it amusing that you concede that the crimes against humanity committed by atheist states weren’t solely the fault of religion. When you start saying things like that, you’ve spent much too long seeing arguments as weapons to be used on behalf of “your side”.)
Second, it refutes a position nobody holds. No religionist believes in a flavor of God-implanted moral sense strong enough to overcome all the various temptations to behave immorally; usually they believe quite the opposite, that it was mostly or totally broken by some sort of Fall. If you find yourself triumphantly refuting a view that cannot in any case survive contact with ordinarily accessible reality, you’re probably dealing with strawmen.
I appreciate the strong feedback. Let’s see the points one by one:
Islamic fundamentalists may not be part of the same organization (although a very large percentage of those performing the worst acts of terrorism somewhat identify with al-quaeda or one of its affiliated organizations) but all you need is a common text as a reference point, a shared understanding of how to interpret it and what it implies, and identification with a culture that encourages blind obedience to those perceived implications. And these all exist and tie together the Islamic fundamentalists.
As for displacement of Native Americans, there is a whole religiously-inspired theory about why they were to be displaced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny#Native_Americans) . Yes, of course there were individualistic incentives too, but they were at the very least enabled by religion.
About the use of the word ‘solely’, I simply did not wish to get into the discussion about whether religion had any involvement at all or not. Establishing that it did not have sole responsibility was enough to proceed with my argument. I think you are reading my sentence in the reverse, as in “if it didn’t have sole responsibility, it must have had partial responsibility” but this claim is nowhere to be found in the text. My claim allows for religion to have some responsibility or no responsibility at all.
Finally, my point is that the tribal instinct routinely overrides the moral instinct. This requires additional mental contortions on the part of religion (reference to a fall that is completely incompatible with evolution, essentially resorting to a different argument) whereas it fits naturally with the atheist claim that morality evolved.
Again, thanks for giving me the chance to respond/clarify.