Maybe CFAR workshop requires full embedding with no distraction?
This is fairly close. Zoom has some distractions that limit its ability to fully replace being in the same room with people. More importantly, CFAR depends on a social environment where it feels safe to question how rational you currently are. That safety might be compromised by taking a workshop while staying in a house with people who aren’t actively promoting the right kind of curiosity. I haven’t talked with CFAR people about this in the past few years, but it’s at least a rough explanation of their original reasons.
For me, concern about “taking a workshop while staying in a house with people who aren’t actively promoting the right kind of curiosity” rings really loud alarm bells.
I would also find that a little alarming. How alarming would depend on details. Is this meditation retreat basically just an opportunity for quiet largely-isolated meditation? (In that case, saying “keep the rest of the world at arm’s length while you’re doing this” seems eminently reasonable.) Is it also going to be filled with, for want of a better word, indoctrination? (In that case, not so reasonable.) Is the given reason something like “to avoid distractions”? (That seems very reasonable.) Or is it something more like “you are better off not being in contact with people whose opinions might differ”? (That would be alarming.)
Your description of what CFAR said (which I appreciate I may be misunderstanding, or you may be reporting in good faith but with less than 100% accuracy) seems to me like it’s leaning in the more-alarming direction.
If I take it exactly at face value, it’s not so alarming. But what you describe seems like exactly the sort of thing I would expect them to say in a world where their purposes are a bit nefarious (“attempt to rewrite participants’ values to bring their goals nearer ours”, as opposed to “help participants reflect on their own goals and achieve them”). This is a concern it’s worth having because it seems like this sort of slight nefariousness is something of an attracting state for seminars of this kind.
I haven’t tried to find a clear explanation of why meditation retreats are more valuable than other approaches to meditation. I have some intuitions, but I expect that most meditation instructors would say something like “experience tells us this is what works”. That’s also most of how CFAR ended up with its current approach. I’m also relying a lot on personal experience—I’m more open to new ideas and new habits in a multi-day retreat than in the other contexts that I’ve tried.
Any workshop, meditation retreat, or university is going to involve some amount of indoctrination. CFAR does a fairly ordinary amount of it compared to those reference classes.
You’re correct that it’s hard to know in advance whether something like this will brainwash you. It seems healthy to plan in advance to get sanity checks from your pre-CFAR friends a week after the workshop, and then repeat that a year later. CFAR is pretty comfortable with participants seeking out contrary opinions before and after workshops.
The post Hold Off On Proposing Solutions provides evidence that temporarily suppressing certain types of opinions can enable people to be more creative about finding good ideas. CFAR participants appear to benefit from similar effects.
It is a good justification for this behavior, but it does not seem to be the most rational choice. Indeed, one could specify that the participant of the online workshop must have a private space (own bedroom, office, hotel room, remote place in a park—whatever fits). I am pretty sure there is a significant number of people, who would prefer an online workshop to the offline one (especially when all offline are canceled due to COVID), and who have or can find a private space for the duration of the workshop. To say that we are not doing it because some people do not have privacy is like for the restaurant to stop offer meat to everyone because there are vegans among customers. Of course, online workshop is not for everyone, but there are people for whom it would work.
It is a good justification for this behavior, but it does not seem to be the most rational choice.
That’s not what “rational” is about.
To know whether their decision is rational you would have to compare it to the alternative choices. Holding a workshop has an opportunity cost. If CFAR is not holding a workshop they are doing something else with the time.
I don’t have a good idea what CFAR did in the time they didn’t hold workshops but without knowing that you can’t make any decision about whether holding online workshops would have been better then what they did.
I am pretty sure there is a significant number of people, who would prefer an online workshop to the offline one
That’s mostly irrelevant given the goals that CFAR has. It would be toxic to make a decision on that basis given that “giving people what they prefer” and “giving people what will improve their rationality” are two different very things. There are a lot of personal development workshops who’s makers focus on the former. CFAR doesn’t.
To say that we are not doing it because some people do not have privacy is like for the restaurant to stop offer meat to everyone because there are vegans among customers.
As far as high end restaurants go, high end restaurants don’t let people order from multiple options. Attempting to give everybody different options is cheap low end and mid level restaurants do.
Apart from that a restaurant is a business that sells products to make a profit on selling products. That’s very far from what CFAR is.
I can understand your point, but I am not persuaded yet. Let me maybe clarify why. During the year and a half of COVID, the in-person workshops were not possible. During this time, there were people, who would strongly benefit from the workshop, and the workshop would be helpful at this time (for example, they were making a career choice). Some of them can allow private places for the time of the workshop. It seems that for them, during this time the online workshop would be certainly more beneficial than no workshop at all. Moreover, conducting at least one online workshop would be a good experiment that would give useful information. It is totally not obvious to me why the priors that “online workshop is useless or harmful, taking into account opportunity cost” are so high that this experiment should not be conducted.
Yes, I hope someone from CFAR can maybe explain it better to me.
This is fairly close. Zoom has some distractions that limit its ability to fully replace being in the same room with people. More importantly, CFAR depends on a social environment where it feels safe to question how rational you currently are. That safety might be compromised by taking a workshop while staying in a house with people who aren’t actively promoting the right kind of curiosity. I haven’t talked with CFAR people about this in the past few years, but it’s at least a rough explanation of their original reasons.
For me, concern about “taking a workshop while staying in a house with people who aren’t actively promoting the right kind of curiosity” rings really loud alarm bells.
How would you compare that to a meditation retreat that asks participants to minimize contact with the outside world for the duration of the retreat?
I would also find that a little alarming. How alarming would depend on details. Is this meditation retreat basically just an opportunity for quiet largely-isolated meditation? (In that case, saying “keep the rest of the world at arm’s length while you’re doing this” seems eminently reasonable.) Is it also going to be filled with, for want of a better word, indoctrination? (In that case, not so reasonable.) Is the given reason something like “to avoid distractions”? (That seems very reasonable.) Or is it something more like “you are better off not being in contact with people whose opinions might differ”? (That would be alarming.)
Your description of what CFAR said (which I appreciate I may be misunderstanding, or you may be reporting in good faith but with less than 100% accuracy) seems to me like it’s leaning in the more-alarming direction.
If I take it exactly at face value, it’s not so alarming. But what you describe seems like exactly the sort of thing I would expect them to say in a world where their purposes are a bit nefarious (“attempt to rewrite participants’ values to bring their goals nearer ours”, as opposed to “help participants reflect on their own goals and achieve them”). This is a concern it’s worth having because it seems like this sort of slight nefariousness is something of an attracting state for seminars of this kind.
I haven’t tried to find a clear explanation of why meditation retreats are more valuable than other approaches to meditation. I have some intuitions, but I expect that most meditation instructors would say something like “experience tells us this is what works”. That’s also most of how CFAR ended up with its current approach. I’m also relying a lot on personal experience—I’m more open to new ideas and new habits in a multi-day retreat than in the other contexts that I’ve tried.
Any workshop, meditation retreat, or university is going to involve some amount of indoctrination. CFAR does a fairly ordinary amount of it compared to those reference classes.
You’re correct that it’s hard to know in advance whether something like this will brainwash you. It seems healthy to plan in advance to get sanity checks from your pre-CFAR friends a week after the workshop, and then repeat that a year later. CFAR is pretty comfortable with participants seeking out contrary opinions before and after workshops.
The post Hold Off On Proposing Solutions provides evidence that temporarily suppressing certain types of opinions can enable people to be more creative about finding good ideas. CFAR participants appear to benefit from similar effects.
Is there any proven benefits of meditation retreats in comparison with regular meditation?
It is a good justification for this behavior, but it does not seem to be the most rational choice. Indeed, one could specify that the participant of the online workshop must have a private space (own bedroom, office, hotel room, remote place in a park—whatever fits). I am pretty sure there is a significant number of people, who would prefer an online workshop to the offline one (especially when all offline are canceled due to COVID), and who have or can find a private space for the duration of the workshop. To say that we are not doing it because some people do not have privacy is like for the restaurant to stop offer meat to everyone because there are vegans among customers. Of course, online workshop is not for everyone, but there are people for whom it would work.
That’s not what “rational” is about.
To know whether their decision is rational you would have to compare it to the alternative choices. Holding a workshop has an opportunity cost. If CFAR is not holding a workshop they are doing something else with the time.
I don’t have a good idea what CFAR did in the time they didn’t hold workshops but without knowing that you can’t make any decision about whether holding online workshops would have been better then what they did.
That’s mostly irrelevant given the goals that CFAR has. It would be toxic to make a decision on that basis given that “giving people what they prefer” and “giving people what will improve their rationality” are two different very things. There are a lot of personal development workshops who’s makers focus on the former. CFAR doesn’t.
As far as high end restaurants go, high end restaurants don’t let people order from multiple options. Attempting to give everybody different options is cheap low end and mid level restaurants do.
Apart from that a restaurant is a business that sells products to make a profit on selling products. That’s very far from what CFAR is.
I can understand your point, but I am not persuaded yet. Let me maybe clarify why. During the year and a half of COVID, the in-person workshops were not possible. During this time, there were people, who would strongly benefit from the workshop, and the workshop would be helpful at this time (for example, they were making a career choice). Some of them can allow private places for the time of the workshop. It seems that for them, during this time the online workshop would be certainly more beneficial than no workshop at all. Moreover, conducting at least one online workshop would be a good experiment that would give useful information. It is totally not obvious to me why the priors that “online workshop is useless or harmful, taking into account opportunity cost” are so high that this experiment should not be conducted.
Yes, I hope someone from CFAR can maybe explain it better to me.