Does the chaperone “know” in what way the protein folded itself?
That’s part of the point that the chaperone intervenes in a way that requires no knowledge about the folding or the outcome of the folding and still provides a good result. That’s similar to nonmanipulative therapeutic interventions. While a good manipulative therapeutic intervention requires knowledge of what you want to change nonmanipulative interventions don’t.
Actually, by your description I don’t think the chaperone intervenes with the protein at all. There does not seem to be any communication from the chaperone to the protein. The chaperone intervenes with the environment surrounding the protein.
The closest analogy I can think of that seems to match, is a therapist communicating with everyone around their patient without actually communicating with the patient and keeping it a secret from the patient that they did so.
I’m not sure that is a useful definition of non-manipulative communication.
The chaperone intervenes with the environment surrounding the protein.
No, the chaperone is basically the full enviroment surrounding the protein while it folds. In the moment in which the protein folds the chaperone is it’s enviroment just like the therapist sets the enviroment during a session with the patient.
I’m not sure that is a useful definition of non-manipulative communication.
It’s a concept from which useful distinctions are drawn in some areas of therapy.
Some areas of osteopathy seem to use the same notion of nonmanipualtion which might be independent from Rogers.
No, the chaperone is basically the full enviroment surrounding the protein while it folds.
Perhaps you can expand on this because I do not see how it’s functionally different from what I said. It becomes the full environment by intervening with the protein’s environment. It cannot become the full environment without intervening with the protein’s environment.
In the moment in which the protein folds the chaperone is it’s enviroment just like the therapist sets the enviroment during a session with the patient.
...and thus I do not see how it’s “just like” what a therapist does...at least if we’re talking about the ways in which the therapist communicates with the patient.
I understand the intention of the therapist is to be like the chaperone. But your analogy seems to be between the chaperone and what the therapist actually does.
This is not to say that the therapist can or cannot communicate with the patient without manipulation, only that that the therapist actually does communicate with the patient and the chaperone does not.
It’s a concept from which useful distinctions are drawn in some areas of therapy.
This might be true. However, your post seems to be making the argument that the type of communication a therapist participates in is literally nonmanipulative and I do not think that is the same argument you make with this sentence.
Perhaps you can expand on this because I do not see how it’s functionally different from what I said.
You spoke about the equivalent would be the therapist talking to people in the enviroment of the patient that are external to the therapist. A chaperone doesn’t change things in the enviroment of the protein that are external to it to make the enviroment interact with the protein in a good way.
I understand the intention of the therapist is to be like the chaperone. But your analogy seems to be between the chaperone and what the therapist actually does.
There are reasons why the phrase holding space is frequently used to describe this kind of communication as something that the therapist does.
There are things in the field of alternative communication that are hard to communicate. I’m not sure whether there’s much more that I can say at this point if what I have already written doesn’t bring the idea across.
therapist participates in is literally nonmanipulative
Words have a bunch of literal meanings. The literal meaning that it’s about is (3) at webster: “: “to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one’s purpose”. In this case the therapist doesn’t have a particular purpose towards which they want the patient to change.
I’ll make this last comment to clarify my position and if you want to reply, I’ll let you have the last word (I say this with sincerity and not in a passive-aggressive manner!)
First of all, I feel like you’re continuing to defend the idea of nonmanipulative communication. To make it clear, I’m not questioning whether it exists or is useful or anything at all. I’m questioning the idea that the chaperone-protein analogy is actually analogous to any sort of communication.
You spoke about the equivalent would be the therapist talking to people in the enviroment of the patient that are external to the therapist. A chaperone doesn’t change things in the enviroment of the protein that are external to it to make the enviroment interact with the protein in a good way.
Hmm.
I don’t feel as if that’s exactly material to the point at hand. The main point is that the chaperone doesn’t interact with the protein in any way. It’s impossible for a human to be like the chaperone and for the human to communicate with the “protein”.
However, I will point out that I don’t mean to claim exactly what you seem to think I mean to claim. My only claim is that the therapist interacting with people other than patient, without interacting with the patient, would be somewhat analogous to the chaperone. That is as far as it goes. That doesn’t go far enough to become a useful analogy because the chaperone—protein relationship is not equivalent to any sort of communication.
There are reasons why the phrase holding space is frequently used to describe this kind of communication as something that the therapist does.
There are things in the field of alternative communication that are hard to communicate. I’m not sure whether there’s much more that I can say at this point if what I have already written doesn’t bring the idea across.
I think you’re still sidestepping the point here. “Things in the field of alternative communication” have almost no bearing on the point of my comments.
My whole point is that the chaperone-protein “relationship” is not communication at all. There is no special type of communication that is not communication.
(You can probably make the argument that the protein communicates one-way with the chaperone. How does the chaperone “know” where to be? I do not know. However, this is impossible to analogize with the type of communication you’re analogizing with.)
In this case the therapist doesn’t have a particular purpose towards which they want the patient to change.
Sure, I agree.
My comments do not attempt to dispute that. My point is that, I do not think you made the case for this definition of (or any of the definitions of) “manipulative” because 1) the chaperone is not analogous to communication of the type you describe and 2) your post largely hangs on this analogy.
If you take away the analogy, your post amounts to the assertion that non-manipulative communication exists.
Right. I guess my point is that that seems to make comparing the chaperone to the ML algorithm a non-starter.
While I wasn’t making this point in my comment, I also think it doesn’t seem likely a good analogy to nonmanipulative conversation since the participants in the nonmanipulative conversation are never in a similar state of ignorance. Even if you’re talking to a complete stranger and trying to be nonmanipulative.
You might be able to emulate such a state, but your post makes no argument to that effect.
That’s part of the point that the chaperone intervenes in a way that requires no knowledge about the folding or the outcome of the folding and still provides a good result. That’s similar to nonmanipulative therapeutic interventions. While a good manipulative therapeutic intervention requires knowledge of what you want to change nonmanipulative interventions don’t.
Actually, by your description I don’t think the chaperone intervenes with the protein at all. There does not seem to be any communication from the chaperone to the protein. The chaperone intervenes with the environment surrounding the protein.
The closest analogy I can think of that seems to match, is a therapist communicating with everyone around their patient without actually communicating with the patient and keeping it a secret from the patient that they did so.
I’m not sure that is a useful definition of non-manipulative communication.
No, the chaperone is basically the full enviroment surrounding the protein while it folds. In the moment in which the protein folds the chaperone is it’s enviroment just like the therapist sets the enviroment during a session with the patient.
It’s a concept from which useful distinctions are drawn in some areas of therapy.
Some areas of osteopathy seem to use the same notion of nonmanipualtion which might be independent from Rogers.
Perhaps you can expand on this because I do not see how it’s functionally different from what I said. It becomes the full environment by intervening with the protein’s environment. It cannot become the full environment without intervening with the protein’s environment.
...and thus I do not see how it’s “just like” what a therapist does...at least if we’re talking about the ways in which the therapist communicates with the patient.
I understand the intention of the therapist is to be like the chaperone. But your analogy seems to be between the chaperone and what the therapist actually does.
This is not to say that the therapist can or cannot communicate with the patient without manipulation, only that that the therapist actually does communicate with the patient and the chaperone does not.
This might be true. However, your post seems to be making the argument that the type of communication a therapist participates in is literally nonmanipulative and I do not think that is the same argument you make with this sentence.
You spoke about the equivalent would be the therapist talking to people in the enviroment of the patient that are external to the therapist. A chaperone doesn’t change things in the enviroment of the protein that are external to it to make the enviroment interact with the protein in a good way.
There are reasons why the phrase holding space is frequently used to describe this kind of communication as something that the therapist does.
There are things in the field of alternative communication that are hard to communicate. I’m not sure whether there’s much more that I can say at this point if what I have already written doesn’t bring the idea across.
Words have a bunch of literal meanings. The literal meaning that it’s about is (3) at webster: “: “to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one’s purpose”. In this case the therapist doesn’t have a particular purpose towards which they want the patient to change.
I’ll make this last comment to clarify my position and if you want to reply, I’ll let you have the last word (I say this with sincerity and not in a passive-aggressive manner!)
First of all, I feel like you’re continuing to defend the idea of nonmanipulative communication. To make it clear, I’m not questioning whether it exists or is useful or anything at all. I’m questioning the idea that the chaperone-protein analogy is actually analogous to any sort of communication.
Hmm.
I don’t feel as if that’s exactly material to the point at hand. The main point is that the chaperone doesn’t interact with the protein in any way. It’s impossible for a human to be like the chaperone and for the human to communicate with the “protein”.
However, I will point out that I don’t mean to claim exactly what you seem to think I mean to claim. My only claim is that the therapist interacting with people other than patient, without interacting with the patient, would be somewhat analogous to the chaperone. That is as far as it goes. That doesn’t go far enough to become a useful analogy because the chaperone—protein relationship is not equivalent to any sort of communication.
I think you’re still sidestepping the point here. “Things in the field of alternative communication” have almost no bearing on the point of my comments.
My whole point is that the chaperone-protein “relationship” is not communication at all. There is no special type of communication that is not communication.
(You can probably make the argument that the protein communicates one-way with the chaperone. How does the chaperone “know” where to be? I do not know. However, this is impossible to analogize with the type of communication you’re analogizing with.)
Sure, I agree.
My comments do not attempt to dispute that. My point is that, I do not think you made the case for this definition of (or any of the definitions of) “manipulative” because 1) the chaperone is not analogous to communication of the type you describe and 2) your post largely hangs on this analogy.
If you take away the analogy, your post amounts to the assertion that non-manipulative communication exists.
Right. I guess my point is that that seems to make comparing the chaperone to the ML algorithm a non-starter.
While I wasn’t making this point in my comment, I also think it doesn’t seem likely a good analogy to nonmanipulative conversation since the participants in the nonmanipulative conversation are never in a similar state of ignorance. Even if you’re talking to a complete stranger and trying to be nonmanipulative.
You might be able to emulate such a state, but your post makes no argument to that effect.