Thank you for your view from inside academia. Some questions to help me get a better sense of what you see:
Do you know any philosophers who switched from non-meta-philosophy to metaphilosophy because they become convinced that the problems they were trying to solve are too hard and they needed to develop a better understanding of philosophical reasoning or better intellectual tools in general? (Or what’s the closest to this that you’re aware of?)
Do you know any philosophers who have expressed an interest in ensuring that future AIs will be philosophically competent, or a desire/excitement for supercompetent AI philosophers? (I know 1 or 2 private expressions of the former, but not translated into action yet.)
Do you know any philosophers who are worried that philosophical problems involved in AI alignment/safety may be too hard to solve in time, and have called for something like an AI pause to give humanity more time to solve them? (Even philosophers who have expressed a concern about AI x-risk or are working on AI safety have not taken a position like this, AFAIK.)
How often have you seen philosophers say something like “Upon further reflection, my proposed solution to problem X has many problems/issues, I’m no longer confident it’s the right approach and now think X is much harder than I originally thought.”
Would also appreciate any links/citations/quotes (if personal but sharable communications) on these.
These are all things I’ve said or done due to high estimate of philosophical difficulty, but not (or rarely) seen among academic philosophers, at least from my casual observation from outside academia. It’s also possible that we disagree on what estimate of philosophical difficulty is appropriate (such that for example you don’t think philosophers should often say or do these things), which would also be interesting to know.
Another academic philosopher, directed here by @Simon Goldstein. Hello Wei!
It’s not common to switch entirely to metaphilosophy, but I think lots of us get more interested in the foundations and methodology of at least our chosen subfields as we gain experience, see where progress is(n’t) being made, start noticing deep disagreements about the quality of different kinds of work, and so on. It seems fair to describe this as awakening to a need for better tools and a greater understanding of methods. I recently wrote a paper about the methodology of one of my research areas, philosophy of mathematical practice, for pretty much these reasons.
Current LLMs are pretty awful at discussing the recent philosophy literature, so I think anyone who’d like AI tools to serve as useful research assistants would be happy to see at least some improvement here! I’m personally also excited about the prospects of using language models with bigger context windows for better corpus analysis work in empirical and practice-oriented parts of philosophy.
I basically agree with Simon on this.
I don’t think this is uncommon. You might not see these reversals in print often, because nobody wants to publish and few people want to read a paper that just says “I retract my previous claims and no longer have a confident positive view to offer”. But my sense is that philosophers often give up on projects because the problems are piling up and they no longer see an appealing way forward. Sometimes this happens more publicly. Hilary Putnam, one of the most influential philosophers of the later 20th century, was famous for changing his mind about scientific realism and other basic metaphysical issues. Wesley Salmon gave up his influential “mark transmission” account of causal explanation due to counterexamples raised by Kitcher (as you can read here). It would be easy enough to find more examples.
Great questions. Sadly, I don’t have any really good answers for you.
I don’t know of specific cases, but for example I think it is quite common for people to start studying meta-ethics because of frustration at finding answers to questions in normative ethics.
I do not, except for the end of Superintelligence
Many of the philosophers I know who work on AI safety would love for there to be an AI pause, in part because they think alignment is very difficult. But I don’t know if any of us have explicitly called for an AI pause, in part because it seems useless, but may have opportunity cost.
I think few of my friends in philosophy have ardently abandoned a research project they once pursued because they decided it wasn’t the right approach. I suspect few researchers do that. In my own case, I used to work in an area called ‘dynamic semantics’, and one reason I’ve stopped working on that research project is that I became pessimistic that it had significant advantages over its competitors.
Sadly, I don’t have any really good answers for you.
Thanks, it’s actually very interesting and important information.
I don’t know of specific cases, but for example I think it is quite common for people to start studying meta-ethics because of frustration at finding answers to questions in normative ethics.
I’ve noticed (and stated in the OP) that normative ethics seems to be an exception where it’s common to express uncertainty/confusion/difficulty. But I think, from both my inside and outside views, that this should be common in most philosophical fields (because e.g. we’ve been trying to solve them for centuries without coming up with broadly convincing solutions), and there should be a steady stream of all kinds of philosophers going up the meta ladder all the way to metaphilosophy. It recently dawned on me that this doesn’t seem to be the case.
Many of the philosophers I know who work on AI safety would love for there to be an AI pause, in part because they think alignment is very difficult. But I don’t know if any of us have explicitly called for an AI pause, in part because it seems useless, but may have opportunity cost.
What seems useless, calling for an AI pause, or the AI pause itself? Have trouble figuring out because if “calling for an AI pause”, what is the opportunity cost (seems easy enough to write or sign an open letter), and if “AI pause itself”, “seems useless” contradicts “would love”. In either case, this seems extremely important to openly discuss/debate! Can you please ask these philosophers to share their views of this on LW (or their preferred venue), and share your own views?
FTR I’d probably be up for helping out logistically with such an open letter (e.g. making the website and any other parts of it). I previously made this open letter.
Sorry for being unclear, I meant that calling for a pause seems useless because it won’t happen. I think calling for the pause has opportunity cost because of limited attention and limited signalling value; reputation can only be used so many times; better to channel pressure towards asks that could plausibly get done.
I think there’s a steady stream of philosophy getting interested in various questions in metaphilosophy
Thanks for this info and the references. I guess by “metaphilosophy” I meant something more meta than metaethics or metaepistemology, i.e., a field that tries to understand all philosophical reasoning in some unified or systematic way, including reasoning used in metaethics and metaepistemology, and metaphilosophy itself. (This may differ from standard academic terminology, in which case please let me know if there’s a preferred term for the concept I’m pointing at.) My reasoning being that metaethics itself seems like a hard problem that has defied solution for centuries, so why stop there instead of going even more meta?
Sorry for being unclear, I meant that calling for a pause seems useless because it won’t happen.
I think you (and other philosophers) may be too certain that a pause won’t happen, but I’m not sure I can convince you (at least not easily). What about calling for it in a low cost way, e.g., instead of doing something high profile like an open letter (with perceived high opportunity costs), just write a blog post or even a tweet saying that you wish for an AI pause, because …? What if many people privately prefer an AI pause, but nobody knows because nobody says anything? What if by keeping silent, you’re helping to keep society in a highly suboptimal equilibrium?
I think there are also good arguments for doing something like this from a deontological or contractualist perspective (i.e. you have a duty/obligation to honestly and publicly report your beliefs on important matters related to your specialization), which sidestep the “opportunity cost” issue, but I’m not sure if you’re open to that kind of argument. I think they should have some weight given moral uncertainty.
Thank you for your view from inside academia. Some questions to help me get a better sense of what you see:
Do you know any philosophers who switched from non-meta-philosophy to metaphilosophy because they become convinced that the problems they were trying to solve are too hard and they needed to develop a better understanding of philosophical reasoning or better intellectual tools in general? (Or what’s the closest to this that you’re aware of?)
Do you know any philosophers who have expressed an interest in ensuring that future AIs will be philosophically competent, or a desire/excitement for supercompetent AI philosophers? (I know 1 or 2 private expressions of the former, but not translated into action yet.)
Do you know any philosophers who are worried that philosophical problems involved in AI alignment/safety may be too hard to solve in time, and have called for something like an AI pause to give humanity more time to solve them? (Even philosophers who have expressed a concern about AI x-risk or are working on AI safety have not taken a position like this, AFAIK.)
How often have you seen philosophers say something like “Upon further reflection, my proposed solution to problem X has many problems/issues, I’m no longer confident it’s the right approach and now think X is much harder than I originally thought.”
Would also appreciate any links/citations/quotes (if personal but sharable communications) on these.
These are all things I’ve said or done due to high estimate of philosophical difficulty, but not (or rarely) seen among academic philosophers, at least from my casual observation from outside academia. It’s also possible that we disagree on what estimate of philosophical difficulty is appropriate (such that for example you don’t think philosophers should often say or do these things), which would also be interesting to know.
Another academic philosopher, directed here by @Simon Goldstein. Hello Wei!
It’s not common to switch entirely to metaphilosophy, but I think lots of us get more interested in the foundations and methodology of at least our chosen subfields as we gain experience, see where progress is(n’t) being made, start noticing deep disagreements about the quality of different kinds of work, and so on. It seems fair to describe this as awakening to a need for better tools and a greater understanding of methods. I recently wrote a paper about the methodology of one of my research areas, philosophy of mathematical practice, for pretty much these reasons.
Current LLMs are pretty awful at discussing the recent philosophy literature, so I think anyone who’d like AI tools to serve as useful research assistants would be happy to see at least some improvement here! I’m personally also excited about the prospects of using language models with bigger context windows for better corpus analysis work in empirical and practice-oriented parts of philosophy.
I basically agree with Simon on this.
I don’t think this is uncommon. You might not see these reversals in print often, because nobody wants to publish and few people want to read a paper that just says “I retract my previous claims and no longer have a confident positive view to offer”. But my sense is that philosophers often give up on projects because the problems are piling up and they no longer see an appealing way forward. Sometimes this happens more publicly. Hilary Putnam, one of the most influential philosophers of the later 20th century, was famous for changing his mind about scientific realism and other basic metaphysical issues. Wesley Salmon gave up his influential “mark transmission” account of causal explanation due to counterexamples raised by Kitcher (as you can read here). It would be easy enough to find more examples.
Great questions. Sadly, I don’t have any really good answers for you.
I don’t know of specific cases, but for example I think it is quite common for people to start studying meta-ethics because of frustration at finding answers to questions in normative ethics.
I do not, except for the end of Superintelligence
Many of the philosophers I know who work on AI safety would love for there to be an AI pause, in part because they think alignment is very difficult. But I don’t know if any of us have explicitly called for an AI pause, in part because it seems useless, but may have opportunity cost.
I think few of my friends in philosophy have ardently abandoned a research project they once pursued because they decided it wasn’t the right approach. I suspect few researchers do that. In my own case, I used to work in an area called ‘dynamic semantics’, and one reason I’ve stopped working on that research project is that I became pessimistic that it had significant advantages over its competitors.
The FLI Pause letter didn’t achieve a pause, but it dramatically shifted the Overton Window.
Thanks, it’s actually very interesting and important information.
I’ve noticed (and stated in the OP) that normative ethics seems to be an exception where it’s common to express uncertainty/confusion/difficulty. But I think, from both my inside and outside views, that this should be common in most philosophical fields (because e.g. we’ve been trying to solve them for centuries without coming up with broadly convincing solutions), and there should be a steady stream of all kinds of philosophers going up the meta ladder all the way to metaphilosophy. It recently dawned on me that this doesn’t seem to be the case.
What seems useless, calling for an AI pause, or the AI pause itself? Have trouble figuring out because if “calling for an AI pause”, what is the opportunity cost (seems easy enough to write or sign an open letter), and if “AI pause itself”, “seems useless” contradicts “would love”. In either case, this seems extremely important to openly discuss/debate! Can you please ask these philosophers to share their views of this on LW (or their preferred venue), and share your own views?
FTR I’d probably be up for helping out logistically with such an open letter (e.g. making the website and any other parts of it). I previously made this open letter.
I think there’s a steady stream of philosophy getting interested in various questions in metaphilosophy; metaethics is just the most salient to me. One example is the recent trend towards conceptual engineering (https://philpapers.org/browse/conceptual-engineering). Metametaphysics has also gotten a lot of attention in the last 10-20 years https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780195396577/obo-9780195396577-0217.xml. There is also some recent work in metaepistemology, but maybe less so because the debates tend to recapitulate previous work in metaethics https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/metaepistemology/.
Sorry for being unclear, I meant that calling for a pause seems useless because it won’t happen. I think calling for the pause has opportunity cost because of limited attention and limited signalling value; reputation can only be used so many times; better to channel pressure towards asks that could plausibly get done.
Thanks for this info and the references. I guess by “metaphilosophy” I meant something more meta than metaethics or metaepistemology, i.e., a field that tries to understand all philosophical reasoning in some unified or systematic way, including reasoning used in metaethics and metaepistemology, and metaphilosophy itself. (This may differ from standard academic terminology, in which case please let me know if there’s a preferred term for the concept I’m pointing at.) My reasoning being that metaethics itself seems like a hard problem that has defied solution for centuries, so why stop there instead of going even more meta?
I think you (and other philosophers) may be too certain that a pause won’t happen, but I’m not sure I can convince you (at least not easily). What about calling for it in a low cost way, e.g., instead of doing something high profile like an open letter (with perceived high opportunity costs), just write a blog post or even a tweet saying that you wish for an AI pause, because …? What if many people privately prefer an AI pause, but nobody knows because nobody says anything? What if by keeping silent, you’re helping to keep society in a highly suboptimal equilibrium?
I think there are also good arguments for doing something like this from a deontological or contractualist perspective (i.e. you have a duty/obligation to honestly and publicly report your beliefs on important matters related to your specialization), which sidestep the “opportunity cost” issue, but I’m not sure if you’re open to that kind of argument. I think they should have some weight given moral uncertainty.