I don’t know a better way of phrasing the central example of category of thinking that is “social generalizations about categories of human that are statistical but commonly discussed in mass media, culture etc.” in a clear and concise way other than “stereotypes” or “stereotyping”. (One of the most common examples I started off with was fast, physical-appearance-based processing of demographic attributes like sex, appearance, accent, dress etc., which then trigger assumptions about people like personality, dispositions etc. most agree are a component in what people label as “stereotypes”).
I was trying to get at a cluster of traits—the “family resemblance thing” even if I couldn’t formalize it well the first time. I was not trying to “Motte-and Bailey” the term “stereotype” but genuinely having a hard time grasping at a less charged term but still had the cluster of traits (in the sense of “what is art” is hard and heavily debated but you could still have a question like do rationalists value art or want to fund art more than average members of the public?).
By analogy, people talk about westerners thinking more individualistically and easterners prefering collectivism, or STEM-types thinking analytically and humanities thinking more holistically or “people orientation” vs. “thing orientation” all the time, even though all those ways of thinking are politically charged (“what is collectivism” it’s a fuzzy set of traits and has a negative connotation in some places but not others) but we can still rationally discuss them.
I didn’t even think “stereotype” was that politically charged in any particular direction (particular stereotypes are, but the concept of there being a thing called “stereotyping” which people of all political persuasions agree exist and people should rationally admit to doing (just like people rationally admit to “generalizing from one example”—I do myself). I avoided focusing on any one subcategory of stereotyping precisely because I wanted to be more meta (instead of asking “are rationalists more skeptical of gender stereotypes”, or “are they more skeptical of national stereotypes”?).
I suppose I could reword to something like “are rationalists less likely to make broad brush social generations from the “general culture” versus firsthand experience and waiting until getting more data firsthand from individuals” or something? Or even “are rationalists more skeptical about broad generalizations about human beings based on limited data about demographic categories than the average member of the public would be?” perhaps chanelling ideas like being aware of “generalizing from one example” or “typical mind fallacy” or “thinking fast and slow”. Would that sound better?
And if others don’t think this discussion is fruitful (as the initial downvotes show), than that is fine too. I am willing to concede and say maybe I’ll spend time on, or discussing, other things. No hard feelings.
I was not trying to “Motte-and Bailey” the term “stereotype” but genuinely having a hard time grasping at a less charged term but still had the cluster of traits
When people engage in bad reasoning because politics mind-killed them it’s generally not because they try to reason badly.
And if others don’t think this discussion is fruitful
It’s not just that, it’s also potentially costly to have the discussion on LessWrong.
in a clear and concise way other than “stereotypes” or “stereotyping”.
Given that there are bailey-and-motte issues, it’s not a clear term. Why do you believe you need a concise way instead of tabooing and explain the cluster that you mean? Having political charged conversations in less concise ways reduces the potential costs of having them.
just like people rationally admit to “generalizing from one example”—I do myself
It worth noting here that people who form their opinion by “generalizing from one example” instead of by listening to common media are not stereotyping in your classification when they judge people by that generalization.
It worth noting here that people who form their opinion by “generalizing from one example” instead of by listening to common media are not stereotyping in your classification when they judge people by that generalization.
Yes, indeed it would run counter to it. I didn’t mean that “generalizing from one example” is “like stereotyping”in that they are similar in what type of reasoning they are, but meant to say they are similar as an example of something people could rationally admit to doing (admit to stereotyping, just like admit to generalizing from one example) and acknowledge the existence of or debate the usefulness of.
I don’t know a better way of phrasing the central example of category of thinking that is “social generalizations about categories of human that are statistical but commonly discussed in mass media, culture etc.” in a clear and concise way other than “stereotypes” or “stereotyping”. (One of the most common examples I started off with was fast, physical-appearance-based processing of demographic attributes like sex, appearance, accent, dress etc., which then trigger assumptions about people like personality, dispositions etc. most agree are a component in what people label as “stereotypes”).
I was trying to get at a cluster of traits—the “family resemblance thing” even if I couldn’t formalize it well the first time. I was not trying to “Motte-and Bailey” the term “stereotype” but genuinely having a hard time grasping at a less charged term but still had the cluster of traits (in the sense of “what is art” is hard and heavily debated but you could still have a question like do rationalists value art or want to fund art more than average members of the public?).
By analogy, people talk about westerners thinking more individualistically and easterners prefering collectivism, or STEM-types thinking analytically and humanities thinking more holistically or “people orientation” vs. “thing orientation” all the time, even though all those ways of thinking are politically charged (“what is collectivism” it’s a fuzzy set of traits and has a negative connotation in some places but not others) but we can still rationally discuss them.
I didn’t even think “stereotype” was that politically charged in any particular direction (particular stereotypes are, but the concept of there being a thing called “stereotyping” which people of all political persuasions agree exist and people should rationally admit to doing (just like people rationally admit to “generalizing from one example”—I do myself). I avoided focusing on any one subcategory of stereotyping precisely because I wanted to be more meta (instead of asking “are rationalists more skeptical of gender stereotypes”, or “are they more skeptical of national stereotypes”?).
I suppose I could reword to something like “are rationalists less likely to make broad brush social generations from the “general culture” versus firsthand experience and waiting until getting more data firsthand from individuals” or something? Or even “are rationalists more skeptical about broad generalizations about human beings based on limited data about demographic categories than the average member of the public would be?” perhaps chanelling ideas like being aware of “generalizing from one example” or “typical mind fallacy” or “thinking fast and slow”. Would that sound better?
And if others don’t think this discussion is fruitful (as the initial downvotes show), than that is fine too. I am willing to concede and say maybe I’ll spend time on, or discussing, other things. No hard feelings.
When people engage in bad reasoning because politics mind-killed them it’s generally not because they try to reason badly.
It’s not just that, it’s also potentially costly to have the discussion on LessWrong.
Given that there are bailey-and-motte issues, it’s not a clear term. Why do you believe you need a concise way instead of tabooing and explain the cluster that you mean? Having political charged conversations in less concise ways reduces the potential costs of having them.
It worth noting here that people who form their opinion by “generalizing from one example” instead of by listening to common media are not stereotyping in your classification when they judge people by that generalization.
It worth noting here that people who form their opinion by “generalizing from one example” instead of by listening to common media are not stereotyping in your classification when they judge people by that generalization.
Yes, indeed it would run counter to it. I didn’t mean that “generalizing from one example” is “like stereotyping”in that they are similar in what type of reasoning they are, but meant to say they are similar as an example of something people could rationally admit to doing (admit to stereotyping, just like admit to generalizing from one example) and acknowledge the existence of or debate the usefulness of.