This is essentially what username2 was getting at, but I’ll try a different direction.
It’s entirely possible that “what caused the big bang” is a nonsensical question. ‘Causes’ and ‘Effects’ only exist insofar as there are things which exist to cause causes and effect effects. The “cause and effect” apparatus could be entirely contained within the universe, in the same way that it’s not really sensible to talk about “before” the universe.
Alternatively, it could be that there’s no “before” because the universe has always existed. Or that our universe nucleated from another universe, and that one could follow the causal chain of universes nucleating within universe backwards forever. Or that time is circular.
I suspect that the reason I’m not religious is that I’m not at all bothered by the question “Why is there a universe, rather than not a universe?” not having a meaningful answer. Or rather, it feels overwhelmingly anthropocentric to expect that the answer to that question, if there even was one, would be comprehensible to me. Worse, if the answer really was “God did it,” I think I would just be disappointed.
It makes a lot of sense that the nature of questions regarding the “beginning” of the universe is nonsensical and anthropocentric, but it still feels like a cheap response that misses the crux of the issue. It feels like “science will fill in that gap eventually” and we ought to trust that will be so.
Matter exists. And there are physical laws in the universe that exist. I accept, despite my lack of imagination and fancy scientific book learning, that this is basically enough to deterministically allow intelligent live beings like you and I to be corresponding via our internet-ed magical picture boxes. Given enough time, just gravity and matter gets us to here—to all the apparent complexity of the universe. I buy that.
But whether the universe is eternal, or time is circular, or we came from another universe, or we are in a simulation, or whatever other strange non-intuitive thing may be true in regard to the ultimate origins of everything, there is still this pesky fact that we are here. And everything else is here. There is existence where it certainly seems there just as easily could be non-existence.
Again, I really do recognize the silly anthropocentric nature of questions about matters like these. I think you are ultimately right that the questions are non-sensical.
But, to my original question, it seems a simple agnostic-ish deism is a fairly reasonable position given the infantile state of our current understanding of ultimate origins. I mean, if you’re correct, we don’t even know that we are asking questions that make sense about how things exist...then how can we rule out something like a powerful, intelligent creative entity (that has nothing to with any revealed religion)?
I’m not asking rhetorically. How do you rule it out?
My disagreement isn’t that it’s implausible for such an entity to exist, but that it’s extremely implausible for it to matter in any decision or experience I anticipate. The chain of unsupported leaps from “I perceive all this stuff and I don’t know why” to “some powerful entitiy created it all, and I understand their desires and want to behave in ways that please or manipulate them” is more than I can follow.
Right. And regardless of what’s written about the rest of the cluster of religious belief regarding souls, creator-pleasing morality, etc., I have yet to actually meet anyone who assigns a high probability of a conscious thinking Creator without also bringing the rest of it in.
The chain of unsupported leaps from “I perceive all this stuff and I don’t know why” to “some powerful entitiy created it all, and I understand their desires and want to behave in ways that please or manipulate them” is more than I can follow.
Why is the bold necessary, or necessarily relevant? Are you referencing revealed religion?
There’s the burden of proof thing (it’s the affirmer, not the denier, who has to present evidence) and the null hypothesis thing (in absence of evidence, the no-effect or no-relationship hypothesis stands).
It makes a lot of sense that the nature of questions regarding the “beginning” of the universe is nonsensical and anthropocentric, but it still feels like a cheap response that misses the crux of the issue. It feels like “science will fill in that gap eventually” and we ought to trust that will be so.
I think that’s one question that science probably won’t be able to answer. But that’s no reason to just make something up! Maybe we can’t rule out a ‘powerful, intelligent creative entity’ – but why would you even think of that? And of course it just shifts the question to the next level, because where would that entity come from?
Maybe we can’t rule out a ‘powerful, intelligent creative entity’ – but why would you even think of that?
Others have thought of it. I’m asking why I ought to dismiss it. I think we have good reasons to dismiss, for instance, Christianity, because of the positive claims it makes. I don’t see the same contradiction with something like deism.
And of course it just shifts the question to the next level, because where would that entity come from?
This isn’t a compelling argument to me. Can we rule out an intelligent prime mover with what we know about the universe? If so, what do we call the events that first caused everything to be?
I have thought a lot about why there is something rather than nothing. It seems (to my brain at least) that the prime numbers have to exist, that they are necessary. I have speculated that perhaps after we understand all of physics we will come to realize that like the prime numbers, the universe must exist. I admit that I’m giving a mysterious answer to a mysterious question, sorry.
Interesting. I’m ignorant of math, but aren’t numbers just abstractions? And prime numbers exist within those abstractions?
Can you help me understand the parallel to the physical reality, and ultimate origins, of the universe?
...
I admit that I’m giving a mysterious answer to a mysterious question, sorry.
I have thought a lot about why there is something rather than nothing. It seems (to my brain at least)...
I appreciate your reply, as it pretty well sums up where I’m at. Can you take a stab at articulating why you (presumably) reject something like deism as an explanation for why there is something instead of nothing?
I also believe a perfect knowledge of physics will ultimately allow us to see clearly “why” and “how” the universe is the way it is, solving questions of origin in the process. But, in the meantime, I’m having a hard time dismissing the idea of a powerful intelligent creative entity a la deism, as it seems just as plausible as the other ideas I’m aware of.
On other note: It seems deism gets saddled with connotations of religion in discussions like this, and I don’t think this is fair or helpful in the discussion. If you would be intentional to avoid this in your response, I would appreciate it.
Look into the ideas of Tegmark, the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis. The central idea is that all possible mathematical structures exist. What we view as “the Universe” is just one set of equations with a particular set of boundary conditions, out of an infinite space of valid mathematical structures. The Universe exists because its existence is logically valid. That’s it.
Yes, this is my best guess as well. I reject deism because of Occam’s razor—the computational complexity of a conscious creator is rather high, although I think this might all be a computer simulation, although then the basement reality doesn’t have a conscious creator.
This is essentially what username2 was getting at, but I’ll try a different direction.
It’s entirely possible that “what caused the big bang” is a nonsensical question. ‘Causes’ and ‘Effects’ only exist insofar as there are things which exist to cause causes and effect effects. The “cause and effect” apparatus could be entirely contained within the universe, in the same way that it’s not really sensible to talk about “before” the universe.
Alternatively, it could be that there’s no “before” because the universe has always existed. Or that our universe nucleated from another universe, and that one could follow the causal chain of universes nucleating within universe backwards forever. Or that time is circular.
I suspect that the reason I’m not religious is that I’m not at all bothered by the question “Why is there a universe, rather than not a universe?” not having a meaningful answer. Or rather, it feels overwhelmingly anthropocentric to expect that the answer to that question, if there even was one, would be comprehensible to me. Worse, if the answer really was “God did it,” I think I would just be disappointed.
It makes a lot of sense that the nature of questions regarding the “beginning” of the universe is nonsensical and anthropocentric, but it still feels like a cheap response that misses the crux of the issue. It feels like “science will fill in that gap eventually” and we ought to trust that will be so.
Matter exists. And there are physical laws in the universe that exist. I accept, despite my lack of imagination and fancy scientific book learning, that this is basically enough to deterministically allow intelligent live beings like you and I to be corresponding via our internet-ed magical picture boxes. Given enough time, just gravity and matter gets us to here—to all the apparent complexity of the universe. I buy that.
But whether the universe is eternal, or time is circular, or we came from another universe, or we are in a simulation, or whatever other strange non-intuitive thing may be true in regard to the ultimate origins of everything, there is still this pesky fact that we are here. And everything else is here. There is existence where it certainly seems there just as easily could be non-existence.
Again, I really do recognize the silly anthropocentric nature of questions about matters like these. I think you are ultimately right that the questions are non-sensical.
But, to my original question, it seems a simple agnostic-ish deism is a fairly reasonable position given the infantile state of our current understanding of ultimate origins. I mean, if you’re correct, we don’t even know that we are asking questions that make sense about how things exist...then how can we rule out something like a powerful, intelligent creative entity (that has nothing to with any revealed religion)?
I’m not asking rhetorically. How do you rule it out?
My disagreement isn’t that it’s implausible for such an entity to exist, but that it’s extremely implausible for it to matter in any decision or experience I anticipate. The chain of unsupported leaps from “I perceive all this stuff and I don’t know why” to “some powerful entitiy created it all, and I understand their desires and want to behave in ways that please or manipulate them” is more than I can follow.
The OP is talking about deism.
Right. And regardless of what’s written about the rest of the cluster of religious belief regarding souls, creator-pleasing morality, etc., I have yet to actually meet anyone who assigns a high probability of a conscious thinking Creator without also bringing the rest of it in.
Have you met anyone who self-identifies as a deist?
Why is the bold necessary, or necessarily relevant? Are you referencing revealed religion?
There’s the burden of proof thing (it’s the affirmer, not the denier, who has to present evidence) and the null hypothesis thing (in absence of evidence, the no-effect or no-relationship hypothesis stands).
I’m not trying to prove anything. I’m asking specifically about the process people who are smarter than I use to rule a proposition out.
I think that’s one question that science probably won’t be able to answer. But that’s no reason to just make something up! Maybe we can’t rule out a ‘powerful, intelligent creative entity’ – but why would you even think of that? And of course it just shifts the question to the next level, because where would that entity come from?
Others have thought of it. I’m asking why I ought to dismiss it. I think we have good reasons to dismiss, for instance, Christianity, because of the positive claims it makes. I don’t see the same contradiction with something like deism.
This isn’t a compelling argument to me. Can we rule out an intelligent prime mover with what we know about the universe? If so, what do we call the events that first caused everything to be?
Could the prime numbers not exist? Somethings, such as our universe, might have to exist.
Please elaborate. The universe is necessary?
I have thought a lot about why there is something rather than nothing. It seems (to my brain at least) that the prime numbers have to exist, that they are necessary. I have speculated that perhaps after we understand all of physics we will come to realize that like the prime numbers, the universe must exist. I admit that I’m giving a mysterious answer to a mysterious question, sorry.
Interesting. I’m ignorant of math, but aren’t numbers just abstractions? And prime numbers exist within those abstractions?
Can you help me understand the parallel to the physical reality, and ultimate origins, of the universe?
...
I appreciate your reply, as it pretty well sums up where I’m at. Can you take a stab at articulating why you (presumably) reject something like deism as an explanation for why there is something instead of nothing?
I also believe a perfect knowledge of physics will ultimately allow us to see clearly “why” and “how” the universe is the way it is, solving questions of origin in the process. But, in the meantime, I’m having a hard time dismissing the idea of a powerful intelligent creative entity a la deism, as it seems just as plausible as the other ideas I’m aware of.
On other note: It seems deism gets saddled with connotations of religion in discussions like this, and I don’t think this is fair or helpful in the discussion. If you would be intentional to avoid this in your response, I would appreciate it.
Look into the ideas of Tegmark, the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis. The central idea is that all possible mathematical structures exist. What we view as “the Universe” is just one set of equations with a particular set of boundary conditions, out of an infinite space of valid mathematical structures. The Universe exists because its existence is logically valid. That’s it.
Yes, this is my best guess as well. I reject deism because of Occam’s razor—the computational complexity of a conscious creator is rather high, although I think this might all be a computer simulation, although then the basement reality doesn’t have a conscious creator.