what if qualions really existed, in a material way and there were physical laws describing how they were caught and accumulated by neural cells. There’s absolutely no evidence for such a theory, so it’s crazy, but its not logically impossible or inconsistent with reductionism, right?
Hmm… excellent point. Here I do think it begins to get fuzzy… what if these qualions fundamentally did stuff that we typically attribute to higher-level functions, such as making decisions? Could there be a “self” qualion? Could their behavior be indeterministic in the sense that we naively attribute to humans? What if there were one qualion per person, which determined everything about their consciousness and personality irreducibly? I feel that, if these sorts of things were the case, we would no longer be within the realm of a “material” theory. It seems that Eliezer would agree:
By far the best definition I’ve ever heard of the supernatural is Richard Carrier’s: A “supernatural” explanation appeals to ontologically basic mental things, mental entities that cannot be reduced to nonmental entities. This is the difference, for example, between saying that water rolls downhill because it wants to be lower, and setting forth differential equations that claim to describe only motions, not desires. It’s the difference between saying that a tree puts forth leaves because of a tree spirit, versus examining plant biochemistry. Cognitive science takes the fight against supernaturalism into the realm of the mind. Why is this an excellent definition of the supernatural? I refer you to Richard Carrier for the full argument. But consider: Suppose that you discover what seems to be a spirit, inhabiting a tree: a dryad who can materialize outside or inside the tree, who speaks in English about the need to protect her tree, et cetera. And then suppose that we turn a microscope on this tree spirit, and she turns out to be made of parts—not inherently spiritual and ineffable parts, like fabric of desireness and cloth of belief; but rather the same sort of parts as quarks and electrons, parts whose behavior is defined in motions rather than minds. Wouldn’t the dryad immediately be demoted to the dull catalogue of common things?
Based on his post eventually insisting on the a priori incoherence of such possibilities (we look inside the dryad and find out he’s not made of dull quarks), I inferred that he thought fundamentally mental things, too, are excluded a priori. You seem to now disagree, as I do. Is that right?
Where things seem to get fuzzy is where things seem to go wrong. Nevertheless, forging ahead..
fundamentally mental things
If they are being called “fundamentally mental” because they interact by one set of rules with things that are mental and a different set of rules with things that are not mental, then it’s not consistent with a reductionist worldview (and it’s also confused because you’re not getting at how mental is different from non-mental). However, if they are being called fundamentally mental because they happen to be mechanistically involved in mental mechanisms, but still interact with all quarks in one consistent way everywhere, it’s logically possible.
Also you asked if these qualions could be indeterministic. It doesn’t matter if you apply this question to a hypothesized new particle. The question is, is indeterminism possible in a closed system? If so, we could postulate quarks as a source of indeterminism.
If they are being called “fundamentally mental” because they interact by one set of rules with things that are mental and a different set of rules with things that are not mental, then it’s not consistent with a reductionist worldview...
Is it therefore a priori logically incoherent? That’s what I’m trying to understand. Would you exclude a “cartesian theatre” fundamental particle a priori?
(and it’s also confused because you’re not getting at how mental is different from non-mental). However, if they are being called fundamentally mental because they happen to be mechanistically involved in mental mechanisms, but still interact with all quarks in one consistent way everywhere, it’s logically possible.
What do you mean by mechanical? I think we’re both resting on some hidden assumption about dividing the mental from the physical/mechanical. I think you’re right that it’s hard to articulate, but this makes Eliezer’s original argument even more confusing. Could you clarify whether or not you’re agreeing with his argument?
If they are being called “fundamentally mental” because they interact by one set of rules with things that are mental and a different set of rules with things that are not mental, then it’s not consistent with a reductionist worldview..
I deduce that the above case would be inconsistent with reductionism. And I think that it is logically incoherent, because I think non-reductionism is logically incoherent, because I think that reductionism is equivalent with the idea of a closed universe, which I think is logically necessary. You may disagree with any step in the chain of this reasoning.
What do you mean by mechanical?
I think you guessed: I meant that there is no division between the mental and physical/mechanical. Believing that a division is a priori possible is definitely non-reductionist. If that is what Eliezer is saying, then I agree with him.
To summarize, my argument is:
[logic --> closed universe --> reductionism --> no division between the mental and the physical/mechanical]
Hmm… excellent point. Here I do think it begins to get fuzzy… what if these qualions fundamentally did stuff that we typically attribute to higher-level functions, such as making decisions? Could there be a “self” qualion? Could their behavior be indeterministic in the sense that we naively attribute to humans? What if there were one qualion per person, which determined everything about their consciousness and personality irreducibly? I feel that, if these sorts of things were the case, we would no longer be within the realm of a “material” theory. It seems that Eliezer would agree:
Based on his post eventually insisting on the a priori incoherence of such possibilities (we look inside the dryad and find out he’s not made of dull quarks), I inferred that he thought fundamentally mental things, too, are excluded a priori. You seem to now disagree, as I do. Is that right?
Where things seem to get fuzzy is where things seem to go wrong. Nevertheless, forging ahead..
If they are being called “fundamentally mental” because they interact by one set of rules with things that are mental and a different set of rules with things that are not mental, then it’s not consistent with a reductionist worldview (and it’s also confused because you’re not getting at how mental is different from non-mental). However, if they are being called fundamentally mental because they happen to be mechanistically involved in mental mechanisms, but still interact with all quarks in one consistent way everywhere, it’s logically possible.
Also you asked if these qualions could be indeterministic. It doesn’t matter if you apply this question to a hypothesized new particle. The question is, is indeterminism possible in a closed system? If so, we could postulate quarks as a source of indeterminism.
Is it therefore a priori logically incoherent? That’s what I’m trying to understand. Would you exclude a “cartesian theatre” fundamental particle a priori?
What do you mean by mechanical? I think we’re both resting on some hidden assumption about dividing the mental from the physical/mechanical. I think you’re right that it’s hard to articulate, but this makes Eliezer’s original argument even more confusing. Could you clarify whether or not you’re agreeing with his argument?
I deduce that the above case would be inconsistent with reductionism. And I think that it is logically incoherent, because I think non-reductionism is logically incoherent, because I think that reductionism is equivalent with the idea of a closed universe, which I think is logically necessary. You may disagree with any step in the chain of this reasoning.
I think you guessed: I meant that there is no division between the mental and physical/mechanical. Believing that a division is a priori possible is definitely non-reductionist. If that is what Eliezer is saying, then I agree with him.
To summarize, my argument is:
[logic --> closed universe --> reductionism --> no division between the mental and the physical/mechanical]