I can’t give you necessary and sufficient conditions for someone to qualify as a racist, if that’s what you’re looking for. I can give you a general (although probably not exhaustive) sense of attitudes/beliefs that I would consider indicators of racism, and I can point at examples of people I consider racist. Given your subsequent request for a taboo on the word I’m not sure what purpose this would serve, but I’ll do it if you’d like.
Can I in the future expect you to stick to the same usage?
If by this you mean something like “Can I expect you to set down a definition of racism and accept in the future that only people meeting that definition are racist?”, then the answer is “no” unfortunately. Like I said, I don’t think I can articulate a necessary and sufficient set of criteria for identifying racists. If you’re asking if I can be expected not to be disingenuous and slippery in the future, then the answer is “yes”, I think.
Can we continue this conversation while holding to a rationalist taboo on “racist”?
Sure. I’m not the one who introduced the word into the discussion. But I’m not sure what this conversation is about, exactly. Would you like me to tell you what I find objectionable about Derbyshire without saying “racist”?
ETA: I’m not sure how advisable it is to continue this conversation, actually. I don’t think discussion of this specific point contributes much to the community, and it is the kind of political clutter that people have objected to in the past. The situation seems to be this: I find certain things Derbyshire says morally repugnant and indicative of a culpable prejudice against black people. You (I’m assuming, otherwise this is just a semantic debate about the word “racism”) don’t. I’m sure you’ve read the sorts of arguments I would make before and been unconvinced. I’m fairly sure I’ve read the sorts of argument you would make and been unconvinced. I doubt either of us is going to get anything substantive out of this discussion, and the mind-killing potential is huge. So let’s drop it, yes?
I’m sure you’ve read the sorts of arguments I would make before and been unconvinced.
Yes because I think the strong moral revulsion the average Western person has towards “racism” comes from ethics based on sacredness (I recommend your read Tinkerbell ethics series by Sister Y to see what I mean by sacred) and not due to consistent application of utilitarian ethics.
Not to say lots of “racism” might not reduce overall or average utility, but the same could be said of the targets of other emotionally charged arational revulsions. For example some people are revolted by sexual promiscuity or material inequality and proceed to sometimes build convincing utilitarian arguments against them.
But clearly their bottom line was written before the rationalized argument.
I’m not trying to put you down here, everyone has sacred spots like that. And we probably share the kinds of spots we have if not their intensity. I’m emotionally disturbed by a high enough setting of “racism” too and I’m pretty sure a high enough level of sexual hedonism might be emotionally disturbing to you.
So let’s drop it, yes?
I can see how these debates might be counter-productive, but are you sure? I find debates on ethics fun. :)
Yes because I think the strong moral revulsion the average Western person has towards “racism” comes from ethics based on sacredness (I recommend your read Tinkerbell ethics series by Sister Y to see what I mean by sacred) and not due to consistent application of utilitarian ethics.
Oh, I have no problem admitting I’m not consistently applying utilitarian ethics. I’m far from a utilitarian. And I’ll also readily acknowledge that some of my moral reactions stem from intuitions about sacredness. I don’t think this means they are wrong or misguided.
I can see how these debates might be counter-productive, but are you sure? I find debates on ethics fun. :)
I do too, sometimes, but again, I know a number of readers won’t be too happy with this discussion dominating the recent comments. Also, this thread is already getting a bit too fighty for my liking (you’re not responsible for this), so it’s probably in my best interest to bow out.
I find certain things Derbyshire says morally repugnant and indicative of a culpable prejudice against black people.
What moral theory are you using to make this judgement? Also what exactly to you mean by “prejudice” and how does it differ from a Beysian prior?
Also since you won’t state your definition of racist, let me ask you some questions about it. Is someone who believes group X has lower average IQ, for example, then group Y a racist? Does it matter how much lower? Does it matter if he has evidence? Does it matter if this belief corresponds to reality? Is the person still morally culpable in some/all of the above cases?
As for me, if someone believes that group X has higher average IQ than group Y and that belief is not caused by them having seen evidence that group X actually has higher average IQ than group Y, I’d call them racist.
Hint: If someone’s belief that white people have higher average IQ than black people was based on evidence that white people have higher average IQ than black people, they’d very likely believe that East Asians and Ashkenazi Jews have even higher average IQ. If they don’t also believe that, I’d strongly suspect their belief is based on something else.
If someone’s belief that white people have higher average IQ than black people was based on evidence that white people have higher average IQ than black people, they’d very likely believe that East Asians and Ashkenazi Jews have even higher average IQ. If they don’t also believe that, I’d strongly suspect their belief is based on something else
I agree with this assessment, since such a person is likely just searching for good things to say about one group and bad things to say about another.
I meant what I said about not wanting to continue the conversation, but since you’re asking me questions, I’ll give you (some) answers. I hope you won’t hold it against me if I don’t answer further questions, though.
What moral theory are you using to make this judgement?
None. I don’t think morality admits of theoretical systematization. I’m sympathetic to moral particularism.
Is someone who believes group X has lower average IQ, for example, then group Y a racist?
No. I believe there are differences in average IQ between racial groups, and I don’t consider myself a racist.
Derbyshire’s belief in racial IQ differences is not why I think he’s a racist. It’s things like advising his children not to assist black people in distress, and offering as a reason a single news story about some black people who killed a man who was helping one of them. Or advising his children not to go to an event where there will be a large number of black people, and offering as support a single news story about a shooting at an event with a large number of black people. Or asserting without evidence that 5% of all black people are ferociously hostile to whites and will go to great lengths to harm them, and that 50% of blacks will passively go along with this 5%. Or saying that one should scrutinize a black candidate for political office much more carefully than a white candidate. These are all claims he makes in the column that got him fired.
According to the data in your link, 12.9 % of murders of white people were committed by black people. Black people constitute 12.6% of the population. I don’t see how this particular data makes it reasonable to advise white children not to help apparently distressed black people, or to believe that 50% of black people will go along with white people being harmed on purely racial grounds, or to believe that black candidates to political office should be scrutinized with more care.
The male-female differential in commission of violent crimes is greater than the black-white differential. Do you really believe that Derbyshire thinks male candidates to political office should be held up to greater scrutiny than female candidates, or that he advises his children not to attend events where there will be a large number of men?
According to the data in your link, 12.9 % of murders of white people were committed by black people. Black people constitute 12.6% of the population.
Well, whites interact more with follow whites then with blacks.
Let’s put it this way. Assuming you live in the US, walk through the nearest black neighborhood at night, every night for about a week. If you aren’t willing to do this, why not?
I can’t give you necessary and sufficient conditions for someone to qualify as a racist, if that’s what you’re looking for. I can give you a general (although probably not exhaustive) sense of attitudes/beliefs that I would consider indicators of racism, and I can point at examples of people I consider racist. Given your subsequent request for a taboo on the word I’m not sure what purpose this would serve, but I’ll do it if you’d like.
If by this you mean something like “Can I expect you to set down a definition of racism and accept in the future that only people meeting that definition are racist?”, then the answer is “no” unfortunately. Like I said, I don’t think I can articulate a necessary and sufficient set of criteria for identifying racists. If you’re asking if I can be expected not to be disingenuous and slippery in the future, then the answer is “yes”, I think.
Sure. I’m not the one who introduced the word into the discussion. But I’m not sure what this conversation is about, exactly. Would you like me to tell you what I find objectionable about Derbyshire without saying “racist”?
ETA: I’m not sure how advisable it is to continue this conversation, actually. I don’t think discussion of this specific point contributes much to the community, and it is the kind of political clutter that people have objected to in the past. The situation seems to be this: I find certain things Derbyshire says morally repugnant and indicative of a culpable prejudice against black people. You (I’m assuming, otherwise this is just a semantic debate about the word “racism”) don’t. I’m sure you’ve read the sorts of arguments I would make before and been unconvinced. I’m fairly sure I’ve read the sorts of argument you would make and been unconvinced. I doubt either of us is going to get anything substantive out of this discussion, and the mind-killing potential is huge. So let’s drop it, yes?
Yes because I think the strong moral revulsion the average Western person has towards “racism” comes from ethics based on sacredness (I recommend your read Tinkerbell ethics series by Sister Y to see what I mean by sacred) and not due to consistent application of utilitarian ethics.
Not to say lots of “racism” might not reduce overall or average utility, but the same could be said of the targets of other emotionally charged arational revulsions. For example some people are revolted by sexual promiscuity or material inequality and proceed to sometimes build convincing utilitarian arguments against them.
But clearly their bottom line was written before the rationalized argument.
I’m not trying to put you down here, everyone has sacred spots like that. And we probably share the kinds of spots we have if not their intensity. I’m emotionally disturbed by a high enough setting of “racism” too and I’m pretty sure a high enough level of sexual hedonism might be emotionally disturbing to you.
I can see how these debates might be counter-productive, but are you sure? I find debates on ethics fun. :)
Oh, I have no problem admitting I’m not consistently applying utilitarian ethics. I’m far from a utilitarian. And I’ll also readily acknowledge that some of my moral reactions stem from intuitions about sacredness. I don’t think this means they are wrong or misguided.
I do too, sometimes, but again, I know a number of readers won’t be too happy with this discussion dominating the recent comments. Also, this thread is already getting a bit too fighty for my liking (you’re not responsible for this), so it’s probably in my best interest to bow out.
What moral theory are you using to make this judgement? Also what exactly to you mean by “prejudice” and how does it differ from a Beysian prior?
Also since you won’t state your definition of racist, let me ask you some questions about it. Is someone who believes group X has lower average IQ, for example, then group Y a racist? Does it matter how much lower? Does it matter if he has evidence? Does it matter if this belief corresponds to reality? Is the person still morally culpable in some/all of the above cases?
As for me, if someone believes that group X has higher average IQ than group Y and that belief is not caused by them having seen evidence that group X actually has higher average IQ than group Y, I’d call them racist.
Hint: If someone’s belief that white people have higher average IQ than black people was based on evidence that white people have higher average IQ than black people, they’d very likely believe that East Asians and Ashkenazi Jews have even higher average IQ. If they don’t also believe that, I’d strongly suspect their belief is based on something else.
I agree with this assessment, since such a person is likely just searching for good things to say about one group and bad things to say about another.
I meant what I said about not wanting to continue the conversation, but since you’re asking me questions, I’ll give you (some) answers. I hope you won’t hold it against me if I don’t answer further questions, though.
None. I don’t think morality admits of theoretical systematization. I’m sympathetic to moral particularism.
No. I believe there are differences in average IQ between racial groups, and I don’t consider myself a racist.
Derbyshire’s belief in racial IQ differences is not why I think he’s a racist. It’s things like advising his children not to assist black people in distress, and offering as a reason a single news story about some black people who killed a man who was helping one of them. Or advising his children not to go to an event where there will be a large number of black people, and offering as support a single news story about a shooting at an event with a large number of black people. Or asserting without evidence that 5% of all black people are ferociously hostile to whites and will go to great lengths to harm them, and that 50% of blacks will passively go along with this 5%. Or saying that one should scrutinize a black candidate for political office much more carefully than a white candidate. These are all claims he makes in the column that got him fired.
Well that’s a start. What about differences in propensity to commit violent crimes?
Near as I can tell, your complaint about Derbyshire is that he takes the implications of this difference seriously and is willing to openly say so.
According to the data in your link, 12.9 % of murders of white people were committed by black people. Black people constitute 12.6% of the population. I don’t see how this particular data makes it reasonable to advise white children not to help apparently distressed black people, or to believe that 50% of black people will go along with white people being harmed on purely racial grounds, or to believe that black candidates to political office should be scrutinized with more care.
The male-female differential in commission of violent crimes is greater than the black-white differential. Do you really believe that Derbyshire thinks male candidates to political office should be held up to greater scrutiny than female candidates, or that he advises his children not to attend events where there will be a large number of men?
Well, whites interact more with follow whites then with blacks.
Let’s put it this way. Assuming you live in the US, walk through the nearest black neighborhood at night, every night for about a week. If you aren’t willing to do this, why not?