I was depressed for most of my 20s. I can’t say it felt anything like having to solve a puzzle to do things. It instead felt like I didn’t care, lacked motivation, etc. Things weren’t hard to do, I just didn’t want to do them or think doing them would be worthwhile because I expected bad stuff to happen as a result of doing things instead of good stuff.
Your model also contradicts most models I’m aware of that describe depression, which fit more with my own experience of a lack of motivation or care or drive to do things.
To me it sounds like you’re describing something that is comorbid with depression for you. I don’t have ADHD, but what you’re describing pattern matches to how I hear people with ADHD describe the experience of trying to make themselves do things: like most activities are like a puzzle in that they require lots of S2-type thinking to make them happen.
The metaphor isn’t meant for you. For a person who hasn’t experienced depression, your description of “lacking motivation” or “not caring” is probably not helpful: I expect most people don’t perceive their performing routine tasks as driven by any particular motivation, and so don’t understand what a lack of motivation would be like. Something more concrete such a person can imagine, even if not hewing very closely to your experience, might be.
Also,
like having to solve a puzzle
I think you might be generalizing solving Sudoku in a way that wasn’t intended. My understanding of the metaphor (which I agree with for the aspect of depression it seeks to describe) is that it’s not meant to be tricky or particularly difficult in any way, just tedious. Perhaps you could substitute something like “multiplying two four-digit numbers” if you prefer. The idea is that if one had to do such a thing before one could get to any task, you can see how that’d lead one to cease to care about said tasks, and so one would stop “showering, going out, talking to friends” etc.
it’s not meant to be tricky or particularly difficult in any way, just tedious.
Tedium still doesn’t land for me as a description of what depression is like. I avoid doing all kinds of tedious things as a non-depressed person because I value my time. For example, I find cooking tedious, so I use money to buy my way out of having to spend a lot of time preparing meals, but I’m not depressed in general or about food specifically.
Perhaps depression makes things feel tedious that otherwise would not because of a lack of motivation to do them. For example, I like sweeping the floor, but sweeping the floor would feel tedious if I didn’t get satisfaction from having clean floors. I probably wouldn’t like sweeping the floor if I were depressed and didn’t care about the floors being clean.
Maybe I’m splitting hairs here, but it seems to me worth making a clear distinction between what it feels like to be depressed and what are common symptoms of depression. The lack of care seems to me like a good approximation of what it feels like; tediousness or puzzle solving seems more like a symptom that shows up for many people, but it not in itself what is like to be depressed, even if it is a frequent type of experience one has while depressed.
The disagreement here seems to be around how literally one should interpret the metaphor.
I agree depression could be more accurately described as “lack of caring” than “must do endless puzzles”. However, the purpose of the post is to describe the depressive experience to people who cannot relate.
To that end, I like the sudoku metaphor. If you tell someone “depression means I just don’t care and can’t muster willpower to do things I should/need to do” a lot of people may—consciously or not—judge this as a voluntary condition where the solution approximates to “have you tried caring?”
Sudokus help illustrate the (what feels like) involuntary roadblocks to otherwise simple life processes, the way these roadblocks ramify insidiously into more sub-components of life over time, and the level of fatigue, suffering, and defeat this inflicts.
OP’s model does not resonate with my experience either. For me, it’s similar to constantly having the flu (or long COVID) in the sense that you persistently feel bad, and doing anything requires extra effort proportional to the severity of symptoms. The difference is that the symptoms mostly manifest in the brain rather than the body.
Yes, but with a very different description of the subjective experience—kind of like getting a sunburn on your back feels very different than most other types of back pain.
The comments below do capture some of my thoughts. I also feel depression as a lack of motivation and general malaise and inability to care about things or feel pleasure.
But these are
difficult to explain to someone who’s never felt, and
subjective feelings, which don’t always translate well through language.
The metaphor is meant to invite someone to think about what their life would be like if, in order to do anything, they had to slog their way through tedious effort for little to no reward. I claim that the result looks, externally, very much like depression—it would cause a lack of motivate, a general malaise, and a hoarding of energy and caring.
Sudoku was chosen as something that doesn’t take much effort but gets mind-numbingly boring after enough time doing it; I emphasize that these aren’t challenging puzzles, only ones that require a bare minimum of effort. Solving a jigsaw puzzle or multiplying numbers may also qualify.
I was depressed for most of my 20s. I can’t say it felt anything like having to solve a puzzle to do things. It instead felt like I didn’t care, lacked motivation, etc. Things weren’t hard to do, I just didn’t want to do them or think doing them would be worthwhile because I expected bad stuff to happen as a result of doing things instead of good stuff.
Your model also contradicts most models I’m aware of that describe depression, which fit more with my own experience of a lack of motivation or care or drive to do things.
To me it sounds like you’re describing something that is comorbid with depression for you. I don’t have ADHD, but what you’re describing pattern matches to how I hear people with ADHD describe the experience of trying to make themselves do things: like most activities are like a puzzle in that they require lots of S2-type thinking to make them happen.
The metaphor isn’t meant for you. For a person who hasn’t experienced depression, your description of “lacking motivation” or “not caring” is probably not helpful: I expect most people don’t perceive their performing routine tasks as driven by any particular motivation, and so don’t understand what a lack of motivation would be like. Something more concrete such a person can imagine, even if not hewing very closely to your experience, might be.
Also,
I think you might be generalizing solving Sudoku in a way that wasn’t intended. My understanding of the metaphor (which I agree with for the aspect of depression it seeks to describe) is that it’s not meant to be tricky or particularly difficult in any way, just tedious. Perhaps you could substitute something like “multiplying two four-digit numbers” if you prefer. The idea is that if one had to do such a thing before one could get to any task, you can see how that’d lead one to cease to care about said tasks, and so one would stop “showering, going out, talking to friends” etc.
Tedium still doesn’t land for me as a description of what depression is like. I avoid doing all kinds of tedious things as a non-depressed person because I value my time. For example, I find cooking tedious, so I use money to buy my way out of having to spend a lot of time preparing meals, but I’m not depressed in general or about food specifically.
Perhaps depression makes things feel tedious that otherwise would not because of a lack of motivation to do them. For example, I like sweeping the floor, but sweeping the floor would feel tedious if I didn’t get satisfaction from having clean floors. I probably wouldn’t like sweeping the floor if I were depressed and didn’t care about the floors being clean.
Maybe I’m splitting hairs here, but it seems to me worth making a clear distinction between what it feels like to be depressed and what are common symptoms of depression. The lack of care seems to me like a good approximation of what it feels like; tediousness or puzzle solving seems more like a symptom that shows up for many people, but it not in itself what is like to be depressed, even if it is a frequent type of experience one has while depressed.
The disagreement here seems to be around how literally one should interpret the metaphor.
I agree depression could be more accurately described as “lack of caring” than “must do endless puzzles”. However, the purpose of the post is to describe the depressive experience to people who cannot relate.
To that end, I like the sudoku metaphor. If you tell someone “depression means I just don’t care and can’t muster willpower to do things I should/need to do” a lot of people may—consciously or not—judge this as a voluntary condition where the solution approximates to “have you tried caring?”
Sudokus help illustrate the (what feels like) involuntary roadblocks to otherwise simple life processes, the way these roadblocks ramify insidiously into more sub-components of life over time, and the level of fatigue, suffering, and defeat this inflicts.
OP’s model does not resonate with my experience either. For me, it’s similar to constantly having the flu (or long COVID) in the sense that you persistently feel bad, and doing anything requires extra effort proportional to the severity of symptoms. The difference is that the symptoms mostly manifest in the brain rather than the body.
that’s what the entire post is about?
Yes, but with a very different description of the subjective experience—kind of like getting a sunburn on your back feels very different than most other types of back pain.
The comments below do capture some of my thoughts. I also feel depression as a lack of motivation and general malaise and inability to care about things or feel pleasure.
But these are
difficult to explain to someone who’s never felt, and
subjective feelings, which don’t always translate well through language.
The metaphor is meant to invite someone to think about what their life would be like if, in order to do anything, they had to slog their way through tedious effort for little to no reward. I claim that the result looks, externally, very much like depression—it would cause a lack of motivate, a general malaise, and a hoarding of energy and caring.
Sudoku was chosen as something that doesn’t take much effort but gets mind-numbingly boring after enough time doing it; I emphasize that these aren’t challenging puzzles, only ones that require a bare minimum of effort. Solving a jigsaw puzzle or multiplying numbers may also qualify.