Huh, this is helpful, thanks, although I’m not quite sure what to make of it and how to move forward.
I do feel confused about how you’re using the term “equanimity”. I sorta have in mind a definition kinda like: neither very happy, nor very sad, nor very excited, nor very tired, etc. Google gives the example: “she accepted both the good and the bad with equanimity”. But if you’re saying “apply equanimity to positive sensations and it makes them better”, you’re evidently using the term “equanimity” in a different way than that. More specifically, I feel like when you say “apply equanimity to X”, you mean something vaguely like “do a specific tricky learned attention-control maneuver that has something to do with the sensory input of X”. That same maneuver could contribute to equanimity, if it’s applied to something like anxiety. But the maneuver itself is not what I would call “equanimity”. It’s upstream. Or sorry if I’m misunderstanding.
Also, I also want to distinguish two aspects of an emotion. In one, “duration of an emotion” is kinda like “duration of wearing my green hat”. I don’t have to be thinking about it the whole time, but it’s a thing happening with my body, and if I go to look, I’ll see that it’s there. Another aspect is the involuntary attention. As long as it’s there, I can’t not think about it, unlike my green hat. I expect that even black-belt PNSE meditators are unable to instantly turn off anger / anxiety / etc. in the former sense. I think these things are brainstem reactions that can be gradually unwound but not instantly. I do expect that those meditators would be able to more instantly prevent the anger / anxiety / etc. from controlling their thought process. What do you think?
Also, just for context, do you think you’ve experienced PNSE? Thanks!
(Kinda figured this, almost decided not to post the comment.)
Also, just for context, do you think you’ve experienced PNSE? Thanks!
Yes with some caveats. I think I’ve experienced no-self, which is what you describe from 6.2 onward. But if you’d asked me how far I am to enlightenment, I’d have said maybe 15%. Which is to say, I think no-self is a real thing you can achieve (and I definitely think it’s a net positive), but I think from there, the ladder goes way way higher. Like the “take one day vs. entire life” comment implies a goodness multiplier of at least 20000x compared to the minds of regular people. Even if we assume this is widely exaggerated (although people keep insisting that it’s not) and that the real multiplier is two OOMs smaller, than that’ still 200x, whereas I’d put no-self at somewhere between 1x and 2x. If someone did claim that just the no-self part gives you even a 200x multiplier (which I doubt the person in the twitter comment would say), then I’d just be scratching my head at that.
… which could be a sign that I’m delusional and haven’t really experienced no-self, but I think my experience fits quite well with your description (less anxiety, less self-reflective thoughts, identification with everything in awareness, etc.). Actually I think no-self + flow state is really very similar to regular flow state, which is again why the multiplier can’t be that high. So, yeah, in my model enlightenment and no-self are two radically different things, the first is way harder to achieve and presumably way way better, and I think I’ve experienced the second but I know I’m nowhere close to the first—if in fact it exists, which I suspect it does. (Sorry for the rambly answer.)
Also, I also want to distinguish two aspects of an emotion. In one, “duration of an emotion” is kinda like “duration of wearing my green hat”. I don’t have to be thinking about it the whole time, but it’s a thing happening with my body, and if I go to look, I’ll see that it’s there. Another aspect is the involuntary attention. As long as it’s there, I can’t not think about it, unlike my green hat. I expect that even black-belt PNSE meditators are unable to instantly turn off anger / anxiety / etc. in the former sense. I think these things are brainstem reactions that can be gradually unwound but not instantly. I do expect that those meditators would be able to more instantly prevent the anger / anxiety / etc. from controlling their thought process. What do you think?
Agree with all this.
More specifically, I feel like when you say “apply equanimity to X”, you mean something vaguely like “do a specific tricky learned attention-control maneuver that has something to do with the sensory input of X”. That same maneuver could contribute to equanimity, if it’s applied to something like anxiety. But the maneuver itself is not what I would call “equanimity”. I
I don’t think it feels that way. What it feels like is that, if you pick any item in awareness, there’s by default a tension with that thing, which makes it feel lower valence. If you apply equanimity—which as I said, I can best describe as ‘try not to resist’—then the apparent tension lessens. With pain, this like experiencing the pain but not suffering. With positive sensations, the best way I can describe it is that if you succeed in applying a decent amount of equanimity, you realize afterward that your enjoyment wasn’t “pure” but was plagued by attachment/craving. A decent way to describe it is that “pleasure turns into fulfillment”; I think that’s the term associated with good-sensations-that-have-no-craving-aspect. But in both cases they definitely become higher valence. And with neutral sensations it kinda still feels like you’ve removed craving or resistance, even though this doesn’t particularly make sense. Anyway, it really doesn’t feel like it’s an attention-control maneuver, it feels like it’s a property of the sensation.
I sorta have in mind a definition kinda like: neither very happy, nor very sad, nor very excited, nor very tired, etc. Google gives the example: “she accepted both the good and the bad with equanimity”
Imo meditators are often evasive when it comes to this topic and refuse to just say that meditation is supposed to make you feel better, even though it obviously does, and this is probably causally upstream of you writing this sentence. i think it’s just because ‘feeling better’ is generally associated with ‘feel more nice things’, and trying to chase pleasures is the opposite of meditation; you’re supposed to be content with what is (again, equanimity feels like not resisting; it’s sometimes analogized to the inverse of friction in a mechanical system). So yeah, I mean, applying tons of equanimity doesn’t make you feel more pleasure, but yeah it does feel really good/high-valence, just in a non-pleasur-y but fullfilment-y sense. (The one time I was on a formal retreat, the meditation teacher even complained when I mentioned that I had a goal for meditating, and I had to specify that this doesn’t mean I’m thinking about the goal while meditating; tbqh imo many people are just kinda bad at differentiating these things, but it’s really not that complicated.)
Huh, this is helpful, thanks, although I’m not quite sure what to make of it and how to move forward.
I do feel confused about how you’re using the term “equanimity”. I sorta have in mind a definition kinda like: neither very happy, nor very sad, nor very excited, nor very tired, etc. Google gives the example: “she accepted both the good and the bad with equanimity”. But if you’re saying “apply equanimity to positive sensations and it makes them better”, you’re evidently using the term “equanimity” in a different way than that. More specifically, I feel like when you say “apply equanimity to X”, you mean something vaguely like “do a specific tricky learned attention-control maneuver that has something to do with the sensory input of X”. That same maneuver could contribute to equanimity, if it’s applied to something like anxiety. But the maneuver itself is not what I would call “equanimity”. It’s upstream. Or sorry if I’m misunderstanding.
Also, I also want to distinguish two aspects of an emotion. In one, “duration of an emotion” is kinda like “duration of wearing my green hat”. I don’t have to be thinking about it the whole time, but it’s a thing happening with my body, and if I go to look, I’ll see that it’s there. Another aspect is the involuntary attention. As long as it’s there, I can’t not think about it, unlike my green hat. I expect that even black-belt PNSE meditators are unable to instantly turn off anger / anxiety / etc. in the former sense. I think these things are brainstem reactions that can be gradually unwound but not instantly. I do expect that those meditators would be able to more instantly prevent the anger / anxiety / etc. from controlling their thought process. What do you think?
Also, just for context, do you think you’ve experienced PNSE? Thanks!
(Kinda figured this, almost decided not to post the comment.)
Yes with some caveats. I think I’ve experienced no-self, which is what you describe from 6.2 onward. But if you’d asked me how far I am to enlightenment, I’d have said maybe 15%. Which is to say, I think no-self is a real thing you can achieve (and I definitely think it’s a net positive), but I think from there, the ladder goes way way higher. Like the “take one day vs. entire life” comment implies a goodness multiplier of at least 20000x compared to the minds of regular people. Even if we assume this is widely exaggerated (although people keep insisting that it’s not) and that the real multiplier is two OOMs smaller, than that’ still 200x, whereas I’d put no-self at somewhere between 1x and 2x. If someone did claim that just the no-self part gives you even a 200x multiplier (which I doubt the person in the twitter comment would say), then I’d just be scratching my head at that.
… which could be a sign that I’m delusional and haven’t really experienced no-self, but I think my experience fits quite well with your description (less anxiety, less self-reflective thoughts, identification with everything in awareness, etc.). Actually I think no-self + flow state is really very similar to regular flow state, which is again why the multiplier can’t be that high. So, yeah, in my model enlightenment and no-self are two radically different things, the first is way harder to achieve and presumably way way better, and I think I’ve experienced the second but I know I’m nowhere close to the first—if in fact it exists, which I suspect it does. (Sorry for the rambly answer.)
Agree with all this.
I don’t think it feels that way. What it feels like is that, if you pick any item in awareness, there’s by default a tension with that thing, which makes it feel lower valence. If you apply equanimity—which as I said, I can best describe as ‘try not to resist’—then the apparent tension lessens. With pain, this like experiencing the pain but not suffering. With positive sensations, the best way I can describe it is that if you succeed in applying a decent amount of equanimity, you realize afterward that your enjoyment wasn’t “pure” but was plagued by attachment/craving. A decent way to describe it is that “pleasure turns into fulfillment”; I think that’s the term associated with good-sensations-that-have-no-craving-aspect. But in both cases they definitely become higher valence. And with neutral sensations it kinda still feels like you’ve removed craving or resistance, even though this doesn’t particularly make sense. Anyway, it really doesn’t feel like it’s an attention-control maneuver, it feels like it’s a property of the sensation.
Imo meditators are often evasive when it comes to this topic and refuse to just say that meditation is supposed to make you feel better, even though it obviously does, and this is probably causally upstream of you writing this sentence. i think it’s just because ‘feeling better’ is generally associated with ‘feel more nice things’, and trying to chase pleasures is the opposite of meditation; you’re supposed to be content with what is (again, equanimity feels like not resisting; it’s sometimes analogized to the inverse of friction in a mechanical system). So yeah, I mean, applying tons of equanimity doesn’t make you feel more pleasure, but yeah it does feel really good/high-valence, just in a non-pleasur-y but fullfilment-y sense. (The one time I was on a formal retreat, the meditation teacher even complained when I mentioned that I had a goal for meditating, and I had to specify that this doesn’t mean I’m thinking about the goal while meditating; tbqh imo many people are just kinda bad at differentiating these things, but it’s really not that complicated.)