We’ve (mostly) solved the hammer control problem in a restricted domain.
The “mostly” part is important—everyone still has QC departments which are quite busy.
Also, I’m not sure that being able to nearly perfectly replicate a fixed set of physical actions is the same thing as solving a control problem.
Air-gapped CNC machinery running embedded OSes (or none at all) is pretty well behaved.
In theory. In practice you still have cosmic rays flipping bits in memory and Stuxnet-type attacks.
However the real issue here is the distinction between “agenty” and “un-agenty”. It is worth noting that the type of control that you mention (e.g. “computer-controlled robots”) is all about getting as far from “agenty” as possible.
It bends the nails, leaves dents in the surface and given the slightest chance will even attack your fingers!
We’ve mostly solved that problem.
I’m not sure that being able to nearly perfectly replicate a fixed set of physical actions is the same thing as solving a control problem.
It’s precisely what’s required to solve the problem of a hammer that bends nails and leaves dents, isn’t it?
Stuxnet-type attacks
I think that’s outside the scope of the “hammer control problem” for the same reasons that “an unfriendly AI convinced my co-worker to sabotage my computer” is outside the scope of the “normal computer control problem” or “powerful space aliens messed with my FAI safety code” is outside the scope of the “AI control problem”.
It is worth noting that the type of control that you mention (e.g. “computer-controlled robots”) is all about getting as far from “agenty” as possible.
I don’t think it is, or at least not exactly. Many of the hammer failures you mentioned aren’t “agenty” problems, they’re control problems in the most classical engineering sense: the feedback loop my brain implements between hammer state and muscle output is incorrect. The problem exists with humans, but also with shoddily-built nail guns. Solving it isn’t about removing “agency” from the bad nail gun.
Sure, if agency gets involved in your hammer control problem you might have other problems too. But if the “hammer control problem” is to be a useful problem, you need to define it as not including all of the “normal computer control problem” or “AI control problem”! It’s exactly the same situation as the original post:
The normal control problem assumes that no specific agency in the programs (especially not super-intelligent agency)
Not quite. We mostly know how to go about it, but we didn’t actually solve it—otherwise there would be no need for QC and no industrial accidents.
It’s precisely what’s required to solve the problem of a hammer that bends nails and leaves dents, isn’t it?
Still nope. The nails come in different shapes and sizes, the materials can be of different density and hardness, the space to swing a hammer can vary, etc. Replicating a fixed set of actions does not solve the general “control of the tool” problem.
I think that’s outside the scope of the “hammer control problem”
I don’t think it is. If you are operating in the real world you have to deal with anything which affects the real-life outcomes, regardless of whether it fits your models and frameworks. The Iranians probably thought that malware was “outside the scope” of running the centrifuges—it didn’t work out well for them.
they’re control problems in the most classical engineering sense
Yes, they are. So if you treat the whole thing as an exercise in proper engineering, it’s not that hard (by making-an-AI standards :-D) However the point of “agenty” tools is to be able to let the tool find a solution or achieve an outcome without you needing to specify precisely how to do it. In that sense the classic engineering control is all about specifying precise actions and “punishing” all deviations from them via feedback loops.
Again, I’m going to import the “normal computer control” problem assumptions by analogy:
The normal control problem allows minor misbehaviour, but that it should not persist over time
Take a modern milling machine. Modern CNC mills can include a lot of QC. They can probe part locations, so that the setup can be imperfect. They can measure part features, in case a raw casting isn’t perfectly consistent. They can measure the part after rough machining, so that the finish pass can account for imperfections from things like temperature variation. They can measure the finished part, and reject or warn if there are errors. They can measure their cutting tools, and respond correctly to variation in tool installation. They can measure their cutting tools to compensate for wear, detect broken tools, switch to the spare cutting bit, and stop work and wait for new tools when needed.
Again, I say: we’ve solved the problem, for things literally as simple as pounding a nail, and a good deal more complicated. Including variation in the nails, the wood, and the hammer. Obviously the solution doesn’t look like a fixed set of voltages sent to servo motors. It does look like a fixed set of parts that get made.
How involved in the field of factory automation are you? I suspect the problem here may simply be that the field is more advanced than you give it credit for.
Yes, the solutions are expensive. We don’t always use these solutions, and often it’s because using the solution would cost more and take more time than not using it, especially for small quantity production. But the trend is toward more of this sort of stuff being implemented in more areas.
The “normal computer control problem” permits some defects, and a greater than 0% error rate, provided things don’t completely fall apart. I think a good definition of the “hammer control problem” is similar.
The “mostly” part is important—everyone still has QC departments which are quite busy.
Also, I’m not sure that being able to nearly perfectly replicate a fixed set of physical actions is the same thing as solving a control problem.
In theory. In practice you still have cosmic rays flipping bits in memory and Stuxnet-type attacks.
However the real issue here is the distinction between “agenty” and “un-agenty”. It is worth noting that the type of control that you mention (e.g. “computer-controlled robots”) is all about getting as far from “agenty” as possible.
We’ve mostly solved that problem.
It’s precisely what’s required to solve the problem of a hammer that bends nails and leaves dents, isn’t it?
I think that’s outside the scope of the “hammer control problem” for the same reasons that “an unfriendly AI convinced my co-worker to sabotage my computer” is outside the scope of the “normal computer control problem” or “powerful space aliens messed with my FAI safety code” is outside the scope of the “AI control problem”.
I don’t think it is, or at least not exactly. Many of the hammer failures you mentioned aren’t “agenty” problems, they’re control problems in the most classical engineering sense: the feedback loop my brain implements between hammer state and muscle output is incorrect. The problem exists with humans, but also with shoddily-built nail guns. Solving it isn’t about removing “agency” from the bad nail gun.
Sure, if agency gets involved in your hammer control problem you might have other problems too. But if the “hammer control problem” is to be a useful problem, you need to define it as not including all of the “normal computer control problem” or “AI control problem”! It’s exactly the same situation as the original post:
Not quite. We mostly know how to go about it, but we didn’t actually solve it—otherwise there would be no need for QC and no industrial accidents.
Still nope. The nails come in different shapes and sizes, the materials can be of different density and hardness, the space to swing a hammer can vary, etc. Replicating a fixed set of actions does not solve the general “control of the tool” problem.
I don’t think it is. If you are operating in the real world you have to deal with anything which affects the real-life outcomes, regardless of whether it fits your models and frameworks. The Iranians probably thought that malware was “outside the scope” of running the centrifuges—it didn’t work out well for them.
Yes, they are. So if you treat the whole thing as an exercise in proper engineering, it’s not that hard (by making-an-AI standards :-D) However the point of “agenty” tools is to be able to let the tool find a solution or achieve an outcome without you needing to specify precisely how to do it. In that sense the classic engineering control is all about specifying precise actions and “punishing” all deviations from them via feedback loops.
Again, I’m going to import the “normal computer control” problem assumptions by analogy:
Take a modern milling machine. Modern CNC mills can include a lot of QC. They can probe part locations, so that the setup can be imperfect. They can measure part features, in case a raw casting isn’t perfectly consistent. They can measure the part after rough machining, so that the finish pass can account for imperfections from things like temperature variation. They can measure the finished part, and reject or warn if there are errors. They can measure their cutting tools, and respond correctly to variation in tool installation. They can measure their cutting tools to compensate for wear, detect broken tools, switch to the spare cutting bit, and stop work and wait for new tools when needed.
Again, I say: we’ve solved the problem, for things literally as simple as pounding a nail, and a good deal more complicated. Including variation in the nails, the wood, and the hammer. Obviously the solution doesn’t look like a fixed set of voltages sent to servo motors. It does look like a fixed set of parts that get made.
How involved in the field of factory automation are you? I suspect the problem here may simply be that the field is more advanced than you give it credit for.
Yes, the solutions are expensive. We don’t always use these solutions, and often it’s because using the solution would cost more and take more time than not using it, especially for small quantity production. But the trend is toward more of this sort of stuff being implemented in more areas.
The “normal computer control problem” permits some defects, and a greater than 0% error rate, provided things don’t completely fall apart. I think a good definition of the “hammer control problem” is similar.