It’s not quite clear to me that the judgments being made here are solely about the owner’s thought processes, though I agree that facts about behavior and thought processes are intermingled in this narrative in such a way as to make it unclear what conclusions are based on which facts.
Still… the owner had doubts suggested about the ship’s seaworthiness, we’re told, and this presumably is a fact about events in the world. The generally agreed-upon credibility of the sources of those suggestions is presumably also something that could be investigated without access to the owner’s thoughts. Further, we can confirm that the owner didn’t overhaul the ship, for example, nor retain the services of trained inspectors to determine the ship’s seaworthiness (or, at least, we have no evidence that he did so, in situations where evidence would be expected if he had).
All of those are facts about behavior. Are those behaviors sufficient to hold the owner liable for the death of the sailors? Perhaps not; perhaps without the benefit of narrative omniscience we’d give the owner the benefit of the doubt. But… so what? In this case, we are being given additional data. In this case we know the owner’s thought process, through the miracle of narrative.
You seem to be trying to suggest, through implication and leading questions, that using that additional information in making a judgment in this case is dangerous… perhaps because we might then be tempted to make judgments in real-world cases as if we knew the owner’s thoughts, which we don’t.
And, well, I agree that to make judgments in real-world cases as if we knew someone’s thoughts is problematic… though sometimes not doing so is also problematic.
Anyway, to answer your question: given the data provided above I consider the shipowner negligent, regardless of whether the ship arrived safely at its destination, or whether it was destroyed by some force no ship could survive.
In absence of applicable regulations I think the veil of ignorance of sorts can help here. Would the shipowner make the same decision were he or his family one of the emigrants? What if it was some precious irreplaceable cargo on it? What if it was regular cargo but not fully insured? If the decision without the veil is significantly difference from the one with, then one can consider him “verily guilty”, without worrying about his thoughts overmuch.
Well, yes, I agree, but I’m not sure how that helps.
We’re now replacing facts about his thoughts (which the story provides us) with speculations about what he might have done in various possible worlds (which seem reasonably easy to infer, either from what we’re told about his thoughts, or from our experience with human nature, but are hardly directly observable).
I don’t think they are pure speculations. This is not the shipowner’s first launch, so the speculations over possible worlds can be approximated by observations over past decisions.
But I guess I’m still in the same place: this narrative is telling us the shipowner’s thoughts. I’m judging the shipowner accordingly.
That being said, if we insist on instead judging a similar case where we lack that knowledge… yeah, I dunno. What conclusion would you arrive at from a Rawlsian analysis and does it differ from a common-sense imputation of motive? I mean, in general, “someone credibly suggested the ship might be unseaworthy and Sam took no steps to investigate that possibility” sounds like negligence to me even in the absence of Rawlsian analysis.
You seem to be trying to suggest, through implication and leading questions, that using that additional information in making a judgment in this case is dangerous
No, I’m just struck by how the issue of guilt here turns on mental processes inside someone’s mind and not at all on what actually happened in physical reality.
given the data provided above I consider the shipowner negligent … Do you disagree?
Keep in mind that this parable was written specifically to make you come to this conclusion :-)
But yes, I disagree. I consider the data above to be insufficient to come to any conclusions about negligence.
I’m just struck by how the issue of guilt here turns on mental processes inside someone’s mind and not at all on what actually happened in physical reality.
Mental processes inside someone’s mind actually happen in physical reality.
Just kidding; I know that’s not what you mean. My actual reply is that it seems manifestly obvious that a person in some set of circumstances that demand action can make decisions that careful and deliberate consideration would judge to be the best, or close to the best, possible in prior expectation under those circumstances, and yet the final outcome could be terrible. Conversely, that person might make decisions that that careful and deliberate consideration would judge to be terrible and foolish in prior expectation, and yet through uncontrollable happenstance the final outcome could be tolerable.
I’m just struck by how the issue of guilt here turns on mental processes inside someone’s mind and not at all on what actually happened in physical reality.
So, I disagreed with this claim the first time you made it, since the grounds cited combine both facts about the shipowners thoughts and facts about physical reality (which I listed). You evidently find that objection so uncompelling as to not even be worth addressing, but I don’t understand why. If you chose to unpack your reasons, I’d be interested.
But, again: even if it’s true, so what? If we have access to the mental processes inside someone’s mind, as we do in this example, why shouldn’t we use that data in determining guilt?
I read the story as asserting three facts about the physical reality: the ship was old, the ship was not overhauled, the ship sank in the middle of the ocean. I don’t think these facts lead to the conclusion of negligence.
If we have access to the mental processes inside someone’s mind
But we don’t. We’re talking about the world in which we live. I would presume that the morality in the world of telepaths would be quite different. Don’t do this.
If we have access to the mental processes inside someone’s mind
But we don’t.
When judging this story, we do. We know what was going on in this shipowner’s mind, because the story tells us.
I’m not generalizing. I’m making a claim about my judgment of this specific case, based on the facts we’re given about it, which include facts about the shipowner’s thoughts.
What’s wrong with that?
As I said initially… I can see arguing that if we allow ourselves to judge this (fictional) situation based on the facts presented, we might then be tempted to judge other (importantly different) situations as if we knew analogous facts, when we don’t. And I agree that doing so would be silly.
But to ignore the data we’re given in this case because in a similar real-world situation we wouldn’t have that data seems equally silly.
It’s not quite clear to me that the judgments being made here are solely about the owner’s thought processes, though I agree that facts about behavior and thought processes are intermingled in this narrative in such a way as to make it unclear what conclusions are based on which facts.
Still… the owner had doubts suggested about the ship’s seaworthiness, we’re told, and this presumably is a fact about events in the world. The generally agreed-upon credibility of the sources of those suggestions is presumably also something that could be investigated without access to the owner’s thoughts. Further, we can confirm that the owner didn’t overhaul the ship, for example, nor retain the services of trained inspectors to determine the ship’s seaworthiness (or, at least, we have no evidence that he did so, in situations where evidence would be expected if he had).
All of those are facts about behavior. Are those behaviors sufficient to hold the owner liable for the death of the sailors? Perhaps not; perhaps without the benefit of narrative omniscience we’d give the owner the benefit of the doubt. But… so what? In this case, we are being given additional data. In this case we know the owner’s thought process, through the miracle of narrative.
You seem to be trying to suggest, through implication and leading questions, that using that additional information in making a judgment in this case is dangerous… perhaps because we might then be tempted to make judgments in real-world cases as if we knew the owner’s thoughts, which we don’t.
And, well, I agree that to make judgments in real-world cases as if we knew someone’s thoughts is problematic… though sometimes not doing so is also problematic.
Anyway, to answer your question: given the data provided above I consider the shipowner negligent, regardless of whether the ship arrived safely at its destination, or whether it was destroyed by some force no ship could survive.
Do you disagree?
In absence of applicable regulations I think the veil of ignorance of sorts can help here. Would the shipowner make the same decision were he or his family one of the emigrants? What if it was some precious irreplaceable cargo on it? What if it was regular cargo but not fully insured? If the decision without the veil is significantly difference from the one with, then one can consider him “verily guilty”, without worrying about his thoughts overmuch.
Well, yes, I agree, but I’m not sure how that helps.
We’re now replacing facts about his thoughts (which the story provides us) with speculations about what he might have done in various possible worlds (which seem reasonably easy to infer, either from what we’re told about his thoughts, or from our experience with human nature, but are hardly directly observable).
How does this improve matters?
I don’t think they are pure speculations. This is not the shipowner’s first launch, so the speculations over possible worlds can be approximated by observations over past decisions.
(nods) As I say, reasonably easy to infer.
But I guess I’m still in the same place: this narrative is telling us the shipowner’s thoughts.
I’m judging the shipowner accordingly.
That being said, if we insist on instead judging a similar case where we lack that knowledge… yeah, I dunno. What conclusion would you arrive at from a Rawlsian analysis and does it differ from a common-sense imputation of motive? I mean, in general, “someone credibly suggested the ship might be unseaworthy and Sam took no steps to investigate that possibility” sounds like negligence to me even in the absence of Rawlsian analysis.
No, I’m just struck by how the issue of guilt here turns on mental processes inside someone’s mind and not at all on what actually happened in physical reality.
Keep in mind that this parable was written specifically to make you come to this conclusion :-)
But yes, I disagree. I consider the data above to be insufficient to come to any conclusions about negligence.
Mental processes inside someone’s mind actually happen in physical reality.
Just kidding; I know that’s not what you mean. My actual reply is that it seems manifestly obvious that a person in some set of circumstances that demand action can make decisions that careful and deliberate consideration would judge to be the best, or close to the best, possible in prior expectation under those circumstances, and yet the final outcome could be terrible. Conversely, that person might make decisions that that careful and deliberate consideration would judge to be terrible and foolish in prior expectation, and yet through uncontrollable happenstance the final outcome could be tolerable.
So, I disagreed with this claim the first time you made it, since the grounds cited combine both facts about the shipowners thoughts and facts about physical reality (which I listed). You evidently find that objection so uncompelling as to not even be worth addressing, but I don’t understand why. If you chose to unpack your reasons, I’d be interested.
But, again: even if it’s true, so what? If we have access to the mental processes inside someone’s mind, as we do in this example, why shouldn’t we use that data in determining guilt?
I read the story as asserting three facts about the physical reality: the ship was old, the ship was not overhauled, the ship sank in the middle of the ocean. I don’t think these facts lead to the conclusion of negligence.
But we don’t. We’re talking about the world in which we live. I would presume that the morality in the world of telepaths would be quite different. Don’t do this.
When judging this story, we do.
We know what was going on in this shipowner’s mind, because the story tells us.
I’m not generalizing. I’m making a claim about my judgment of this specific case, based on the facts we’re given about it, which include facts about the shipowner’s thoughts.
What’s wrong with that?
As I said initially… I can see arguing that if we allow ourselves to judge this (fictional) situation based on the facts presented, we might then be tempted to judge other (importantly different) situations as if we knew analogous facts, when we don’t. And I agree that doing so would be silly.
But to ignore the data we’re given in this case because in a similar real-world situation we wouldn’t have that data seems equally silly.