Yikes. This post strikes me as harmful and irresponsible. Less Wrong is less of a community than I’d like—less there for its members, less mindful of what effects each person has on the others and on the rest of the community.
I agree, actually, that all subjects are fitting subjects for rationality. But if you’re going to talk with someone who is suicidal and unstable about the detailed pros and cons of killing themselves, you risk having seriously bad consequences. Saying “but free speech is good, and thinking through all subjects is good” just isn’t enough of an answer to that. Talking about some subjects brings responsibilities—responsibilities for thinking carefully through who you might harm, and how you can support them during the discussion. Offering help.
LW has a number of seriously depressed people.
Since this thread is already up—let’s make an effort now to reach out to anyone who needs reaching out to, to increase the odds that depressed LW readers have social support. That is: if you know a LW-er online or in person who is depressed, make contact with them. If you’re a good listener with a couple of free hours in your life, echo Alicorn’s offer of help. If you have a bit of spare money and a good CBT book to recommend, offer to mail it to someone who’d read it. If you have useful well-being tips and can write, consider making a front-level post (on happiness tips or CBT or the like, not on topics that might prime suicide).
Yikes. This post strikes me as harmful and irresponsible.
On the other hand this attitude—and the associated active suppression of such conversations is one of the contributing factors that Chris cited in his parting note. And not without good reason.
Suicide is a subject about which there is much cause to be cautious. It is, after all, a matter of life and death. Yet looking over this post specifically it does not appear to fit the category of harmful or irresponsible. I am glad to see that it was received positively and not the victim of a typical knee-jerk downvote spiral.
I really don’t understand your objection to this post specifically. I tried to craft it in the most sensitive way possible, it wasn’t directly addressed to suicidal people themselves, and you agree that all subjects are fitting subjects for rationality. Furthermore, many commenters (including yourself) have in fact used it as an opportunity to reach out to those in the community suffering from depression.
What aspects of this post are so harmful that you think they outweigh the benefits, and how could it have been better written so as to allow the topic to be discussed while minimizing harm?
I don’t think your post was irresponsible, but it does frighten me. Your reaction to the suicide—to try to put yourself in the man’s shoes, to understand the mindset and grievances of a person who might make such a decision, and to withhold the judgement that his decision was a mistake—is clearly borne of kind and humane impulses. But I suspect that you’re depressed yourself, and that your depression has hijacked and perverted those impulses.
Many commenters here have reacted to the suicide not with “how must he have felt” but with “how can we prevent more such things from happening?” It seems you think this reveals a lack of empathy or respect, and that someone who understood better what it’s like to “not always be enthusiastic about their own existence” would approach the issue differently—in the way you’re approaching it. I wonder if it’s occurred to you, and I hope that you’ll consider it, that your understanding of what depression is like might actually be poorer than those making the banal and maudlin point that this was a tragedy and a mistake, precisely because depression can rob you of perspective.
I am not, in fact, currently depressed, although I have been in the past. But I (in my non-depressed state) respect the feelings, wishes, and preferences of my depressed self, just like those of someone else like Chris.
Many commenters here have reacted to the suicide not with “how must he have felt” but with “how can we prevent more such things from happening?” It seems you think this reveals a lack of empathy or respect
I haven’t said much of anything in response to most comments here; you seem to be extrapolating from things I said in the post. But there I was criticizing specific bad arguments, ones that are encountered in the general culture and not necessarily here ; the remark about lack of empathy was in specific reference to the argument from grief of friends and relatives.
the banal and maudlin point that this was a tragedy and a mistake
That it was a tragedy is certain; unfortunately, that doesn’t automatically imply that it was a mistake.
However, it may very well have been a mistake in Chris’s case. I’m not sure he realized how close he was (a few keystrokes by him or someone else, like me) to the kind of friendship he needed.
But it’s that kind of miscalculation that would make it a mistake, and not the mere fact that other people are sad, or that “we must prevent suicide” is a widespread moral-sounding meme.
I myself am very sad about this, and become more so the more I read his writings. I hope he is not forgotten.
Since this thread is already up—let’s make an effort now to reach out to anyone who needs reaching out to, to increase the odds that depressed LW readers have social support. That is: if you know a LW-er online or in person who is depressed, make contact with them. If you’re a good listener with a couple of free hours in your life, echo Alicorn’s offer of help. If you have a bit of spare money and a good CBT book to recommend, offer to mail it to someone who’d read it. If you have useful well-being tips and can write, consider making a front-level post (on happiness tips or CBT or the like, not on topics that might prime suicide).
You know… many people on LW seem likable, but I don’t feel as if anyone here is actually my friend. I’m not saying that to express disdain or reject the idea of forming relationships; I’m observing that it is surprising. I ordinarily get attached to people quite easily (I send cookies to people I used to play World of Warcraft with years ago), but that just hasn’t happened at all here.
So I don’t know who might actually be in trouble, or how to help. There are a few people I’d say I’ve gotten a bad vibe off of, but nothing strong enough to really act on. If anyone is reading this and would like someone to listen to them, just generally be nice to them, or help in some other way, I hope they’ll send me a message. But I’m afraid they probably won’t.
I ordinarily get attached to people quite easily (I send cookies to people I used to play World of Warcraft with years ago), but that just hasn’t happened at all here.
WOW is a virtual war, and war creates camaraderie.
Yikes. This post strikes me as harmful and irresponsible. Less Wrong is less of a community than I’d like—less there for its members, less mindful of what effects each person has on the others and on the rest of the community.
I agree, actually, that all subjects are fitting subjects for rationality. But if you’re going to talk with someone who is suicidal and unstable about the detailed pros and cons of killing themselves, you risk having seriously bad consequences. Saying “but free speech is good, and thinking through all subjects is good” just isn’t enough of an answer to that. Talking about some subjects brings responsibilities—responsibilities for thinking carefully through who you might harm, and how you can support them during the discussion. Offering help.
LW has a number of seriously depressed people.
Since this thread is already up—let’s make an effort now to reach out to anyone who needs reaching out to, to increase the odds that depressed LW readers have social support. That is: if you know a LW-er online or in person who is depressed, make contact with them. If you’re a good listener with a couple of free hours in your life, echo Alicorn’s offer of help. If you have a bit of spare money and a good CBT book to recommend, offer to mail it to someone who’d read it. If you have useful well-being tips and can write, consider making a front-level post (on happiness tips or CBT or the like, not on topics that might prime suicide).
On the other hand this attitude—and the associated active suppression of such conversations is one of the contributing factors that Chris cited in his parting note. And not without good reason.
Suicide is a subject about which there is much cause to be cautious. It is, after all, a matter of life and death. Yet looking over this post specifically it does not appear to fit the category of harmful or irresponsible. I am glad to see that it was received positively and not the victim of a typical knee-jerk downvote spiral.
I really don’t understand your objection to this post specifically. I tried to craft it in the most sensitive way possible, it wasn’t directly addressed to suicidal people themselves, and you agree that all subjects are fitting subjects for rationality. Furthermore, many commenters (including yourself) have in fact used it as an opportunity to reach out to those in the community suffering from depression.
What aspects of this post are so harmful that you think they outweigh the benefits, and how could it have been better written so as to allow the topic to be discussed while minimizing harm?
I don’t think your post was irresponsible, but it does frighten me. Your reaction to the suicide—to try to put yourself in the man’s shoes, to understand the mindset and grievances of a person who might make such a decision, and to withhold the judgement that his decision was a mistake—is clearly borne of kind and humane impulses. But I suspect that you’re depressed yourself, and that your depression has hijacked and perverted those impulses.
Many commenters here have reacted to the suicide not with “how must he have felt” but with “how can we prevent more such things from happening?” It seems you think this reveals a lack of empathy or respect, and that someone who understood better what it’s like to “not always be enthusiastic about their own existence” would approach the issue differently—in the way you’re approaching it. I wonder if it’s occurred to you, and I hope that you’ll consider it, that your understanding of what depression is like might actually be poorer than those making the banal and maudlin point that this was a tragedy and a mistake, precisely because depression can rob you of perspective.
I am not, in fact, currently depressed, although I have been in the past. But I (in my non-depressed state) respect the feelings, wishes, and preferences of my depressed self, just like those of someone else like Chris.
I haven’t said much of anything in response to most comments here; you seem to be extrapolating from things I said in the post. But there I was criticizing specific bad arguments, ones that are encountered in the general culture and not necessarily here ; the remark about lack of empathy was in specific reference to the argument from grief of friends and relatives.
That it was a tragedy is certain; unfortunately, that doesn’t automatically imply that it was a mistake.
However, it may very well have been a mistake in Chris’s case. I’m not sure he realized how close he was (a few keystrokes by him or someone else, like me) to the kind of friendship he needed.
But it’s that kind of miscalculation that would make it a mistake, and not the mere fact that other people are sad, or that “we must prevent suicide” is a widespread moral-sounding meme.
I myself am very sad about this, and become more so the more I read his writings. I hope he is not forgotten.
You know… many people on LW seem likable, but I don’t feel as if anyone here is actually my friend. I’m not saying that to express disdain or reject the idea of forming relationships; I’m observing that it is surprising. I ordinarily get attached to people quite easily (I send cookies to people I used to play World of Warcraft with years ago), but that just hasn’t happened at all here.
So I don’t know who might actually be in trouble, or how to help. There are a few people I’d say I’ve gotten a bad vibe off of, but nothing strong enough to really act on. If anyone is reading this and would like someone to listen to them, just generally be nice to them, or help in some other way, I hope they’ll send me a message. But I’m afraid they probably won’t.
WOW is a virtual war, and war creates camaraderie.
If you have access to an internet connection, offer to send them a link to an electronic source of a CBT book.