It’s probably good to have a mix. I get something distinct from reading people like Roissy or Sailer, whose basic values are totally divorced from my own. I get something else from Eliezer or Will Wilkinson, who derive different policy preferences from values that are similar to mine.
There’s something liberating about evil analysis, and I think it’s that it’s audaciousness allows you to put down mental blinders that would be on guard againstmore plausible threats to your ideological integrity. And a nice thing about values changing over time is that the classics are full of this stuff. Reading, say, Schmidt is like reading political philosophy from Mars, and that’s something you should experience regularly. Any similar recommendations?
Upvoted. From my reply you’ll see that I agree it’s probably good to seek out, as you say, those “whose basic values are totally divorced from [one’s’] own.” But can you say more about James Miller’s original contention that you should specifically be seeking out that which is designed to piss you off? That’s where it seems to me that his idea goes just totally wrong. How is this going to do anything except encourage you to retreat into tribalism?
If you know that doing X will ” encourage you to retreat into tribalism” then doing X gives you a great opportunity to fight against your irrational instincts.
Well, there is the aesthetic appreciation of polemic for its own sake, but that’s not going to make you more rational.
I think the most obvious answer, though, is that it can inure you a bit to connotative sneers. Aversion to this kind of insult is likely one of the major things keeping you from absorbing novel information!
One way to do this very quickly—you shouldn’t, of course, select your politics for such trivial advantages, but if you do, take advantage of it—is to become evil yourself, relative to the majority’s values. There are certain groups an attack upon which constitutes an applause line in the mainstream. If you identify as a communist or fascist or Islamist or other Designated Antagonist Group, you can either take the (obviously epistemically disastrous) route of only reading your comrades, or you can keep relying on mainstream institutional sources of information that insult you, and thereby thicken your skin. (Empirical prediction: hard {left|right}ists are more likely to read mainstream {conservatives|liberals} than are mainstream {liberals|conservatives}.)
(An alternate strategy this suggests, if your beliefs are, alas, pedestrian, is to “identify” with some completely ridiculous normative outlook, like negative utilitarianism or something. Let everyone’s viewpoint offend you until “this viewpoint offends!” no longer functions as a curiosity stopper.)
Well, I understand your reasoning: you suggest that it’s likely (or at least possible) that one’s reaction in the face of rhetorically “hot” disagreement will be a built-up tolerance (immunity) for mockery, making one more able to extract substance and ignore affect. My belief is that that particular strength of character (which I admire when I see it, which is rarely) is infrequent relative to, as I keep calling it, a retreat into tribalism in the face of mockery of one’s dearly-held beliefs. Hence my feeling that the upper-left quadrant of the graph I describe is not good breeding grounds for rationality. That isn’t to suggest that we shouldn’t do our best to self-modify such that that would no longer be the case, but it is hard to do and our efforts might be best spent elsewhere.
Also worth considering is the hypothesis that the two axes of my graph aren’t fully independent, but instead that “hot” expressions are correlated with substantively less rich and worthwhile viewpoints, because the richest and most worthwhile viewpoints wouldn’t have much need to rely on affect. If this is true (and I think it is at least somewhat true), it would be another reason for avoiding rhetorically “hot” political viewpoints in general.
As my political beliefs have become more evil I’ve become much better at ignoring insults to my politics. I remain pretty thin-skinned individually, though, so it seems that whatever’s moving me in this way is politics-specific.
The healthiest reading space is probably all over the axis. Passion is not the opposite of reason, and there are pleasures to take in reading beyond the conveyance of mere information.
Further to this. Let’s plot political discourse along two axes: substantive (x axis: -disagree to +agree) and rhetorical (y axis: -”cool”/reasoned to +”hot”/emotional). Oligopsony states that it is valuable to engage with those on the left-hand side of the graph (people who disagree with you), without any particular sense that special dangers are posed by the upper left-hand quadrant. (Oligopsony says reading so-and-so is “like reading political philosophy from Mars, and that’s something you should experience regularly”—regardless of the particular emotional relationship you are going to have with that Martian political philosophy as a function of the way in which it’s presented.) My view (following on, I think, PitM-K—and in sharp disagreement with James Miller’s original post in this thread) is that the upper half of the graph, and particularly the upper left-hand quadrant, is danger territory, because of the likelihood you are going to retreat into tribalism as your views are mocked.
Reading, say, Schmidt is like reading political philosophy from Mars, and that’s something you should experience regularly.
I like many aspects of Schmitt and he never produced any shock in me, unlike e.g. many bloggers who can be found 1-2 links away from Moldbug. In fact, many leftists have talked favourably about his reasoning if not his values.
Yes, I’ve heard of Schmitt. Paul Gottfried, who is one of my favorite contemporary political theorists, wrote a book about him. I plan to read at least some of Schmitt’s original work before reading what Gottfried has to say about him, but I haven’t gotten to it yet. Do you have any particular recommendations?
If you want to read some political philosophy that’s really out there by modern standards, try Joseph de Maistre. His staunch Catholicism will probably be off-putting to many people here, but a truly unbiased reader should understand that modern political writers are smuggling just as many unwarranted metaphysical assumptions into their work, except in much more devious ways. Also, although some of his arguments have been objectively falsified in the meantime, others have struck me as spot-on from the modern perspective of Darwinian insight into human nature and the humanity’s practical political experiences from the last two centuries. (His brother Xavier is a minor classic of French literature, whom I warmly recommend for some fun reading.)
It’s probably good to have a mix. I get something distinct from reading people like Roissy or Sailer, whose basic values are totally divorced from my own. I get something else from Eliezer or Will Wilkinson, who derive different policy preferences from values that are similar to mine.
There’s something liberating about evil analysis, and I think it’s that it’s audaciousness allows you to put down mental blinders that would be on guard againstmore plausible threats to your ideological integrity. And a nice thing about values changing over time is that the classics are full of this stuff. Reading, say, Schmidt is like reading political philosophy from Mars, and that’s something you should experience regularly. Any similar recommendations?
Upvoted. From my reply you’ll see that I agree it’s probably good to seek out, as you say, those “whose basic values are totally divorced from [one’s’] own.” But can you say more about James Miller’s original contention that you should specifically be seeking out that which is designed to piss you off? That’s where it seems to me that his idea goes just totally wrong. How is this going to do anything except encourage you to retreat into tribalism?
If you know that doing X will ” encourage you to retreat into tribalism” then doing X gives you a great opportunity to fight against your irrational instincts.
Well, there is the aesthetic appreciation of polemic for its own sake, but that’s not going to make you more rational.
I think the most obvious answer, though, is that it can inure you a bit to connotative sneers. Aversion to this kind of insult is likely one of the major things keeping you from absorbing novel information!
One way to do this very quickly—you shouldn’t, of course, select your politics for such trivial advantages, but if you do, take advantage of it—is to become evil yourself, relative to the majority’s values. There are certain groups an attack upon which constitutes an applause line in the mainstream. If you identify as a communist or fascist or Islamist or other Designated Antagonist Group, you can either take the (obviously epistemically disastrous) route of only reading your comrades, or you can keep relying on mainstream institutional sources of information that insult you, and thereby thicken your skin. (Empirical prediction: hard {left|right}ists are more likely to read mainstream {conservatives|liberals} than are mainstream {liberals|conservatives}.)
(An alternate strategy this suggests, if your beliefs are, alas, pedestrian, is to “identify” with some completely ridiculous normative outlook, like negative utilitarianism or something. Let everyone’s viewpoint offend you until “this viewpoint offends!” no longer functions as a curiosity stopper.)
Well, I understand your reasoning: you suggest that it’s likely (or at least possible) that one’s reaction in the face of rhetorically “hot” disagreement will be a built-up tolerance (immunity) for mockery, making one more able to extract substance and ignore affect. My belief is that that particular strength of character (which I admire when I see it, which is rarely) is infrequent relative to, as I keep calling it, a retreat into tribalism in the face of mockery of one’s dearly-held beliefs. Hence my feeling that the upper-left quadrant of the graph I describe is not good breeding grounds for rationality. That isn’t to suggest that we shouldn’t do our best to self-modify such that that would no longer be the case, but it is hard to do and our efforts might be best spent elsewhere.
Also worth considering is the hypothesis that the two axes of my graph aren’t fully independent, but instead that “hot” expressions are correlated with substantively less rich and worthwhile viewpoints, because the richest and most worthwhile viewpoints wouldn’t have much need to rely on affect. If this is true (and I think it is at least somewhat true), it would be another reason for avoiding rhetorically “hot” political viewpoints in general.
As my political beliefs have become more evil I’ve become much better at ignoring insults to my politics. I remain pretty thin-skinned individually, though, so it seems that whatever’s moving me in this way is politics-specific.
The healthiest reading space is probably all over the axis. Passion is not the opposite of reason, and there are pleasures to take in reading beyond the conveyance of mere information.
Further to this. Let’s plot political discourse along two axes: substantive (x axis: -disagree to +agree) and rhetorical (y axis: -”cool”/reasoned to +”hot”/emotional). Oligopsony states that it is valuable to engage with those on the left-hand side of the graph (people who disagree with you), without any particular sense that special dangers are posed by the upper left-hand quadrant. (Oligopsony says reading so-and-so is “like reading political philosophy from Mars, and that’s something you should experience regularly”—regardless of the particular emotional relationship you are going to have with that Martian political philosophy as a function of the way in which it’s presented.) My view (following on, I think, PitM-K—and in sharp disagreement with James Miller’s original post in this thread) is that the upper half of the graph, and particularly the upper left-hand quadrant, is danger territory, because of the likelihood you are going to retreat into tribalism as your views are mocked.
I like many aspects of Schmitt and he never produced any shock in me, unlike e.g. many bloggers who can be found 1-2 links away from Moldbug. In fact, many leftists have talked favourably about his reasoning if not his values.
Oligopsony:
Please pardon my evident lack of erudition, but which Schmidt do you have in mind?
Carl, and upon looking it up it’s Schmitt. So the lack of erudition is all mine.
Yes, I’ve heard of Schmitt. Paul Gottfried, who is one of my favorite contemporary political theorists, wrote a book about him. I plan to read at least some of Schmitt’s original work before reading what Gottfried has to say about him, but I haven’t gotten to it yet. Do you have any particular recommendations?
If you want to read some political philosophy that’s really out there by modern standards, try Joseph de Maistre. His staunch Catholicism will probably be off-putting to many people here, but a truly unbiased reader should understand that modern political writers are smuggling just as many unwarranted metaphysical assumptions into their work, except in much more devious ways. Also, although some of his arguments have been objectively falsified in the meantime, others have struck me as spot-on from the modern perspective of Darwinian insight into human nature and the humanity’s practical political experiences from the last two centuries. (His brother Xavier is a minor classic of French literature, whom I warmly recommend for some fun reading.)