What does Less Wrong know about the Myers-Briggs personality type indicator? My sense is that it’s a useful model for some things, but I’m most interested in how useful it is for relationships. This site suggests that each personality type pair has a specific type of relationship, while this site only comments on what the ideal pair is for any given type. But the two sites disagree about what the ideal pairings are.
Personality Page is not mainstream Jungian; they seem to be of the opinion that sharing a dominant trait of opposite attitude is most beneficial. More mainstream MBTI sites will tend to agree with Socionics that completely opposite traits are the most complementary (for example Fe and Ti) but disagree on what of these traits correlate to a J or P.
So if you go by the theory that J/P correlates to extroverted conscious traits (the MBTI position), INTP and ESFJ are complementary. If you go by the theory that J/P correlates to the dominant trait, INTJ is ESFJ’s dual. Socionics sites tend to take this position.
Note that while these letters should be completely exclusive for introverts, many of the introvert profiles seem to be the same (or suspiciously similar) between the systems, particularly with sensing types. So an (alleged) ISFP MBTI may actually be ISFP in Socionics.
That would imply that someone is wrong/confused. Either the profiles are uselessly vague (Fourier effect, no better than astrology charts for identifying this particular feature), the traits aren’t actually real emperical phenomena (Si1 is indistinguishable from Se2), or the traits are being defined differently (such that Si1 in system A is actually Se2 in system B).
To confuse/complicate matters more, all the traits have various features in common with each other: S+T are pragmatic and “hard”, T+N are theoretical/consequence-based, F+N are abstract and ideal, F+S are aesthetic and social, just as T+F are judging and S+N are perceiving. So profiles could have varying accuracy while describing surface aspects of real traits, yet not distinguishing them from each other well enough to be useful.
Now, if just you want to use this to find a prospective spouse or best friend who is your dual type, and don’t care so much about the theoretical correctness of who is what type, there’s a work-around: Find someone who appears opposite on the first three letters, then see if they make you comfortable or not. If they have shared values and a compatible sense of humor, chances are relatively high that they are a dual type rather than a conflict type.
That is interesting. I would expect there to be some significant differences in relationship quality among MB types even if the types are only somewhat correlated (under the assumption that socionics is correct).
One of the better sites on the topic is Rick DeLong’s Socionics.us. He says there is only roughly a 30% correlation between MBTI types and Socionics types. Boulakov is also skeptical of the validity of MBTI typings. Perhaps the correlation is not high enough to obtain meaningful results here. I will be updating my beliefs on the matter, as this implies most MBTI types are mistaken if socionics is valid.
Honestly though, it really does look a lot like motivated cognition on part of socionists. I mean, they do have a coherently self-consistent theory but reference to external data points are suspiciously scarce. They seemingly start with the assumption (based on anecdotal observations of Augusta, socionics’ founder, and others after her) that these relationship preferences between distinct types exist, find subjective validation, and then go from there to assert that the MBTI is just not accurate enough at determining the traits socionics is based on. So for example if two people who are claimed to be ISFp and ENTp (where lowercase p is “irrational”) do not get along, Socionists will say the typing is invalid rather than that the theory is wrong. But if relationships are the only acid test of a typing, and relationships are the only thing predicted by the typing, it’s turned into a vague “if you like these kinds of people you will like these kinds of people”.
However, it’s not entirely hopeless because there are more specific predictions to to validate. As an example, given a valid ISFp/ENTp pair, socionics also predicts the ISFp will be a supervisor (“supervision transmitter” in DeLong’s terms) for the INFj type, whereas ENTp will be the “request transmitter” or beneficiary for the INFj. So if you could design a set of experimental test situations where supervision and request are distinguishable from other types of interaction (perhaps a game of some sort), you could perhaps set up a series of meetings between test subjects and see if it checks out. You could verify a given dual pair by their interactions with a given supervision/request receiver first, then arrange a meeting between them and see if they have more compatibility than the control group. The same thing could be verified with the diad’s supervision/request transmitter type.
My sense is that it’s a useful model for some things, but I’m most interested in how useful it is for relationships.
I think there are better models to use when considering relationships. I note that often such models are useful in as much as they serve to provide a language which can be used to describe intuitive associations that we pick up through observation. The King Warrior Magician Lover model is not terrible, being a formalisation of the ‘opposites attract’ conventional wisdom with consideration given to how different people relate on intellectual and emotional levels.
As for MBTI, I have found it useful in some regards. I know, for example, that I can basically rule out relationships with anyone who comes in as a “J”. I just find “J”s annoying (‘judgemental’ of me, I know!)
Edit: The links you provide are… interesting. I must admit I have rather strong doubts about just how accurate those physical descriptions of various personality types are!
I think there are better models to use when considering relationships.
like? (I’m intrigued)
The links you provide are… interesting. I must admit I have rather strong doubts about just how accurate those physical descriptions of various personality types are!
Me too. There does seem to be some correlation between physical appearance and personality, but those details are rather burdensome.
What does Less Wrong know about the Myers-Briggs personality type indicator? My sense is that it’s a useful model for some things, but I’m most interested in how useful it is for relationships. This site suggests that each personality type pair has a specific type of relationship, while this site only comments on what the ideal pair is for any given type. But the two sites disagree about what the ideal pairings are.
Personality Page is not mainstream Jungian; they seem to be of the opinion that sharing a dominant trait of opposite attitude is most beneficial. More mainstream MBTI sites will tend to agree with Socionics that completely opposite traits are the most complementary (for example Fe and Ti) but disagree on what of these traits correlate to a J or P.
So if you go by the theory that J/P correlates to extroverted conscious traits (the MBTI position), INTP and ESFJ are complementary. If you go by the theory that J/P correlates to the dominant trait, INTJ is ESFJ’s dual. Socionics sites tend to take this position.
Note that while these letters should be completely exclusive for introverts, many of the introvert profiles seem to be the same (or suspiciously similar) between the systems, particularly with sensing types. So an (alleged) ISFP MBTI may actually be ISFP in Socionics.
That would imply that someone is wrong/confused. Either the profiles are uselessly vague (Fourier effect, no better than astrology charts for identifying this particular feature), the traits aren’t actually real emperical phenomena (Si1 is indistinguishable from Se2), or the traits are being defined differently (such that Si1 in system A is actually Se2 in system B).
To confuse/complicate matters more, all the traits have various features in common with each other: S+T are pragmatic and “hard”, T+N are theoretical/consequence-based, F+N are abstract and ideal, F+S are aesthetic and social, just as T+F are judging and S+N are perceiving. So profiles could have varying accuracy while describing surface aspects of real traits, yet not distinguishing them from each other well enough to be useful.
Now, if just you want to use this to find a prospective spouse or best friend who is your dual type, and don’t care so much about the theoretical correctness of who is what type, there’s a work-around: Find someone who appears opposite on the first three letters, then see if they make you comfortable or not. If they have shared values and a compatible sense of humor, chances are relatively high that they are a dual type rather than a conflict type.
But which view (if any) makes good predictions in the relationship department?
EDIT: A quick survey of abstracts on google scholar suggests that marital satisfaction is not related to the MB personality types of the couples.
That is interesting. I would expect there to be some significant differences in relationship quality among MB types even if the types are only somewhat correlated (under the assumption that socionics is correct).
One of the better sites on the topic is Rick DeLong’s Socionics.us. He says there is only roughly a 30% correlation between MBTI types and Socionics types. Boulakov is also skeptical of the validity of MBTI typings. Perhaps the correlation is not high enough to obtain meaningful results here. I will be updating my beliefs on the matter, as this implies most MBTI types are mistaken if socionics is valid.
Honestly though, it really does look a lot like motivated cognition on part of socionists. I mean, they do have a coherently self-consistent theory but reference to external data points are suspiciously scarce. They seemingly start with the assumption (based on anecdotal observations of Augusta, socionics’ founder, and others after her) that these relationship preferences between distinct types exist, find subjective validation, and then go from there to assert that the MBTI is just not accurate enough at determining the traits socionics is based on. So for example if two people who are claimed to be ISFp and ENTp (where lowercase p is “irrational”) do not get along, Socionists will say the typing is invalid rather than that the theory is wrong. But if relationships are the only acid test of a typing, and relationships are the only thing predicted by the typing, it’s turned into a vague “if you like these kinds of people you will like these kinds of people”.
However, it’s not entirely hopeless because there are more specific predictions to to validate. As an example, given a valid ISFp/ENTp pair, socionics also predicts the ISFp will be a supervisor (“supervision transmitter” in DeLong’s terms) for the INFj type, whereas ENTp will be the “request transmitter” or beneficiary for the INFj. So if you could design a set of experimental test situations where supervision and request are distinguishable from other types of interaction (perhaps a game of some sort), you could perhaps set up a series of meetings between test subjects and see if it checks out. You could verify a given dual pair by their interactions with a given supervision/request receiver first, then arrange a meeting between them and see if they have more compatibility than the control group. The same thing could be verified with the diad’s supervision/request transmitter type.
I think there are better models to use when considering relationships. I note that often such models are useful in as much as they serve to provide a language which can be used to describe intuitive associations that we pick up through observation. The King Warrior Magician Lover model is not terrible, being a formalisation of the ‘opposites attract’ conventional wisdom with consideration given to how different people relate on intellectual and emotional levels.
As for MBTI, I have found it useful in some regards. I know, for example, that I can basically rule out relationships with anyone who comes in as a “J”. I just find “J”s annoying (‘judgemental’ of me, I know!)
Edit: The links you provide are… interesting. I must admit I have rather strong doubts about just how accurate those physical descriptions of various personality types are!
like? (I’m intrigued)
Me too. There does seem to be some correlation between physical appearance and personality, but those details are rather burdensome.