And since this is quite the extensive response, and by no means rude or badly written, let me first say thanks. :) Glad you wanted to engage and get into this with me and others here.
I guess I feel a bit uplifted from reading your comment, even when, technically, you aren’t really tackling my position head on ^ ^. It is very engaging, like a good song, a speech or something. Simple, direct examples, and a language that is easy to follow, with relatable arguments and views. A great start I would wager.
I still wonder though if you could find some useful angle for this kind of knowledge? Couldn’t it at least safeguard you from certain wrongful stances towards the Universe as a benevolent place that wants to help us? Curious if you can find something.
Thanks for the feedback! I deeply appreciate it. The praise makes my confidence go up. Glad to be able to participate in the discussion :D.
So… regarding useful angles, I thought it was somewhat self explanatory at the time, but in hindsight I think I was suffering from typical mind fallacy and failed to properly explain it. Allow me to clarify my thoughts.
I feel that in general terms your position that the universe is “fundamentally wrong” (ie: doesn’t care for human values) is rather uncontestable. While I don’t think there is necessarily a useful angle for believing this, there are countless ways that not believing it can go wrong. I think I’ll use theodicy as a very obvious example which someone else had already explored.
Theodicy is, in essence, the belief that the universe rewards good and punishes evil, so thus all outcomes are deserved. Hard work always leads to success. Bad deeds always lead to punishment. Anyone with any understanding of politics or social situations, however, would understand the horrific implications of this line of thinking. Anybody who is in poverty has nobody but themselves to blame, even if their circumstances were entirely out of their control. Those who fall sick must have deserved it, and thus don’t deserve treatment. Those with depression have earned it…
I could go on, but I don’t think I need to. This is at it’s core monstrous thinking that strips human beings of their deserved empathy, and explains away all of our problems under the veneer of fairness. Far too often it’s used to justify inaction. Why help the poor if they’re undeserving? Why speak for those without a voice, if they don’t exercise it? Why fight for those unable to defend themselves? They could’ve done something, or so the line of thinking goes. More often than not, they can’t. Meanwhile the rich and powerful pat themselves on the back for having being born into wealth and privilege. Like the divine right of kings which preceded it, the theodicy of ‘deserts’ encourages us to be complacent. It’s thus not a worthy belief.
The thought that the universe won’t protect us is hardly comforting, but I think it’s a sober belief that lends itself well to sober decisions. It reminds us of our own privileges, our circumstances, our luck. It teaches us to be grateful, but also, to be sympathetic towards the challenges of others. I think this may be the head on tackling of your position that you were referring to. If not, I apologize, I may have misread.
In any case my view is that the universe’s problems are not really a problem in the conventional sense. Rather than something that can truly be solved, they are more of a harsh reality we accept with dignity. The fact remains, however, that we can learn from the truth, and avoid many pitfalls that might come from going down irrational paths.
Thanks for your response once again! This is looking like an interesting discussion, and I’m interested in continuing. Would you mind taking this to a more private channel? Like Dms, maybe? I don’t mind posting in public, but it makes me feel a bit self conscious and I think I might express myself better in private.
that is a brilliant point, and an understandable concern indeed. I hadn’t heard about the word ‘theodicy’ before, but I’ll definitely try to remember it now.
I see your point. If the Universe is fundamentally fair, and it is inherently possible to change one’s fate and situation with effort/will alone, it becomes a moot point to ‘blame’ someone or something else.
I now see the link you made in your first comment much better,
Even though I believe your comment is great, I’ll respect your wish of course. I’ll send you a message now.
Congrats ;) Lyrongolem on your first comment,
And since this is quite the extensive response, and by no means rude or badly written, let me first say thanks. :) Glad you wanted to engage and get into this with me and others here.
I guess I feel a bit uplifted from reading your comment, even when, technically, you aren’t really tackling my position head on ^ ^. It is very engaging, like a good song, a speech or something. Simple, direct examples, and a language that is easy to follow, with relatable arguments and views. A great start I would wager.
I still wonder though if you could find some useful angle for this kind of knowledge? Couldn’t it at least safeguard you from certain wrongful stances towards the Universe as a benevolent place that wants to help us? Curious if you can find something.
Kindly,
Caerulea-Lawrence
Hello Caerulea-Lawrence,
Thanks for the feedback! I deeply appreciate it. The praise makes my confidence go up. Glad to be able to participate in the discussion :D.
So… regarding useful angles, I thought it was somewhat self explanatory at the time, but in hindsight I think I was suffering from typical mind fallacy and failed to properly explain it. Allow me to clarify my thoughts.
I feel that in general terms your position that the universe is “fundamentally wrong” (ie: doesn’t care for human values) is rather uncontestable. While I don’t think there is necessarily a useful angle for believing this, there are countless ways that not believing it can go wrong. I think I’ll use theodicy as a very obvious example which someone else had already explored.
Theodicy is, in essence, the belief that the universe rewards good and punishes evil, so thus all outcomes are deserved. Hard work always leads to success. Bad deeds always lead to punishment. Anyone with any understanding of politics or social situations, however, would understand the horrific implications of this line of thinking. Anybody who is in poverty has nobody but themselves to blame, even if their circumstances were entirely out of their control. Those who fall sick must have deserved it, and thus don’t deserve treatment. Those with depression have earned it…
I could go on, but I don’t think I need to. This is at it’s core monstrous thinking that strips human beings of their deserved empathy, and explains away all of our problems under the veneer of fairness. Far too often it’s used to justify inaction. Why help the poor if they’re undeserving? Why speak for those without a voice, if they don’t exercise it? Why fight for those unable to defend themselves? They could’ve done something, or so the line of thinking goes. More often than not, they can’t. Meanwhile the rich and powerful pat themselves on the back for having being born into wealth and privilege. Like the divine right of kings which preceded it, the theodicy of ‘deserts’ encourages us to be complacent. It’s thus not a worthy belief.
The thought that the universe won’t protect us is hardly comforting, but I think it’s a sober belief that lends itself well to sober decisions. It reminds us of our own privileges, our circumstances, our luck. It teaches us to be grateful, but also, to be sympathetic towards the challenges of others. I think this may be the head on tackling of your position that you were referring to. If not, I apologize, I may have misread.
In any case my view is that the universe’s problems are not really a problem in the conventional sense. Rather than something that can truly be solved, they are more of a harsh reality we accept with dignity. The fact remains, however, that we can learn from the truth, and avoid many pitfalls that might come from going down irrational paths.
Thanks for your response once again! This is looking like an interesting discussion, and I’m interested in continuing. Would you mind taking this to a more private channel? Like Dms, maybe? I don’t mind posting in public, but it makes me feel a bit self conscious and I think I might express myself better in private.
Hello Lyrongolem,
that is a brilliant point, and an understandable concern indeed. I hadn’t heard about the word ‘theodicy’ before, but I’ll definitely try to remember it now.
I see your point. If the Universe is fundamentally fair, and it is inherently possible to change one’s fate and situation with effort/will alone, it becomes a moot point to ‘blame’ someone or something else.
I now see the link you made in your first comment much better,
Even though I believe your comment is great, I’ll respect your wish of course. I’ll send you a message now.