I could have also framed it to make it seem far creepier
I’ll put it simply: if someone asks me about my kids, neither to be polite nor because they care, but because they want to change the way I behave, then they’re (in most cases) being manipulative and insincere. While perhaps they’re not wronging me, per se, it’s certainly not something that speaks well of them, ethically speaking. If you find this controversial, then you surprise me.
It would be bad advice, I think, to encourage people to use positive reinforcement on others when their ignorance is necessary for it to be effective. Not just practically bad advice, as people are pretty good at picking up on fake friendliness. But full stop ethically damaging advice, if taken seriously. I’m not saying that every such case is going to be unethical, but I’m not in the business of lawlike ethical principles anyway.
That said, you seem to be going from that claim to the implicit claim that they are bad by virtue of depending on my ignorance. That’s less clear to me.
No, what I said was that behaviors which depend on someone’s ignorance for their effectiveness are often also bad behaviors. I didn’t say anything one way or the other about a stricter relation between the two properties, but I’ll say now that I don’t think they’re unrelated.
I agree that asking you about your kids solely to change your behavior is manipulative. I also agree that it’s insincere. (Which is an entirely distinct thing.) I would also say that asking you about your kids solely to be polite is insincere. I would not agree that any of these are necessarily unethical.
I am not quite sure what you mean by “ethically damaging advice.” I agree with you that it’s not always unethical to positively reinforce others without their knowledge. I would agree that “Positively reinforcing others without their knowledge is a good thing to do, do it constantly” is advice that, if taken seriously, would often lead me to perform unethical acts. I can accept calling it unethical advice for that reason, I suppose. But I also think that “Positively reinforcing others without their knowledge is a bad thing to do, never do it.” is unethical advice in the same (somewhat unclear) sense.
I agree that behaviors that depend on others’ ignorance are often also bad behaviors. Behaviors that depend on others’ knowledge are also often bad behaviors.
Well, I think I’d stand by what I said originally. Though I guess I’m counting on no one reading that as the exceptionless proposition ‘for all x such that x is a case of using positive reinforcement without someone’s knowledge, x is unethical’. Likewise, if someone asked me, I’d say ‘Don’t ever shoplift, it’s unethical.’ Though I wouldn’t want or expect anyone to read that as ‘all cases of shoplifting are, without exception, unethical.’
I’ll put it simply: if someone asks me about my kids, neither to be polite nor because they care, but because they want to change the way I behave, then they’re (in most cases) being manipulative and insincere. While perhaps they’re not wronging me, per se, it’s certainly not something that speaks well of them, ethically speaking. If you find this controversial, then you surprise me.
It would be bad advice, I think, to encourage people to use positive reinforcement on others when their ignorance is necessary for it to be effective. Not just practically bad advice, as people are pretty good at picking up on fake friendliness. But full stop ethically damaging advice, if taken seriously. I’m not saying that every such case is going to be unethical, but I’m not in the business of lawlike ethical principles anyway.
No, what I said was that behaviors which depend on someone’s ignorance for their effectiveness are often also bad behaviors. I didn’t say anything one way or the other about a stricter relation between the two properties, but I’ll say now that I don’t think they’re unrelated.
I agree that asking you about your kids solely to change your behavior is manipulative.
I also agree that it’s insincere. (Which is an entirely distinct thing.)
I would also say that asking you about your kids solely to be polite is insincere.
I would not agree that any of these are necessarily unethical.
I am not quite sure what you mean by “ethically damaging advice.”
I agree with you that it’s not always unethical to positively reinforce others without their knowledge.
I would agree that “Positively reinforcing others without their knowledge is a good thing to do, do it constantly” is advice that, if taken seriously, would often lead me to perform unethical acts. I can accept calling it unethical advice for that reason, I suppose.
But I also think that “Positively reinforcing others without their knowledge is a bad thing to do, never do it.” is unethical advice in the same (somewhat unclear) sense.
I agree that behaviors that depend on others’ ignorance are often also bad behaviors.
Behaviors that depend on others’ knowledge are also often bad behaviors.
Agreed on all counts. In fact, it doesn’t look like we disagree at all, judging from your comment.
Oh good!
When you started out by saying “never do this,” I concluded otherwise.
I’m pleased to discover I was wrong.
Well, I think I’d stand by what I said originally. Though I guess I’m counting on no one reading that as the exceptionless proposition ‘for all x such that x is a case of using positive reinforcement without someone’s knowledge, x is unethical’. Likewise, if someone asked me, I’d say ‘Don’t ever shoplift, it’s unethical.’ Though I wouldn’t want or expect anyone to read that as ‘all cases of shoplifting are, without exception, unethical.’
OK. I apologize for misunderstanding your original comment.
Quite alright, I’ve enjoyed the discussion.
What do you think being polite is?