So if I can’t avoid it, the next best thing would be to influence skillfully, not clumsily. In both cases, the other person’s behavior is being influenced, and in both cases they are not explicitly aware of this. The only difference in the second case is that I know what I’m doing.
I think there is a difference. You’re right that all our behavior has or can have a reinforcing effect on other people. But smiles, and frowns, and thank-yous and such aren’t therefore just reinforcers. When I smile at someone, I express something like affection, and if I don’t feel any affection, I smile falsely. All these kinds of behaviors are the sorts of things that can be done honestly or falsely, and we ought to do them honestly. We do this with children, but with adults it’s disrespectful.
It might be possible to smile at someone for the sake of reinforcing some behavior of theirs, and to feel affection all the while, but my sense is that either a smile is an expression of affection, or it is done for some ulterior end.
I think your initial reaction to PUA is spot on. It’s a monstrous practice.
my sense is that either a smile is an expression of affection, or it is done for some ulterior end.
Here’s where I think human thinking is more complicated, muddled, and mutually-reinforcing than you say. In the example of saying “Thank you,” is it really so inconceivable that someone might say “Thank you,” while thinking (or, more likely, wordlessly intuiting) something along the lines of “I’m grateful and happy that this person did this, and I would like them to do it again”? In fact, much of these “reinforcement” or “animal training” tips, while phrased repulsively, mostly end up advising, “Remember to consistently express the gratitude you feel , and refrain from expressing any annoyance you might feel.”
Here’s what I might think, if I were the wife in that example: “Not only does nagging and expressing annoyance when I feel my reasonable expectations were not met belittle and irritate my husband, it doesn’t even work. He still doesn’t put the damn clothes in the damn hamper! We’re both less happy, and I didn’t even get him to change.” If I understand you correctly, that last part, where I discuss the efficacy of my nagging at getting me what I want, sounds dishonestly manipulative to you.
We all expect things from others, and we all care about others. Is it always, inevitably wrong to sully considerations of caring/being a nice person with considerations of ensuring your expectations and needs get met? Or is it that the only legitimate way to get other human beings to meet your expectations is to sit them down and explain it all to them, even if they’re annoyed and made unhappy by this Talk and its lack of emotional salience means it doesn’t work?
Saying “Thank you” and ignoring the clothes that don’t get put in the hamper works. It bypasses defensive, angry, annoyed reactions to nagging. It accurately expresses that clothes-in-the-hamper make me happy—in fact, more directly than the nagging method did, because the nagging method required the husband to infer that clothes-on-floor causes irate nagging, therefore clothes-in-the-hamper must cause happiness and gratitude. He’s happy, because he feels appreciated and doesn’t feel like he’s a teenager again being prodded by his mother. I’m happy, because I don’t feel like a grumpy middle-aged mother of a teenager. The clothes are in the hamper.
Was it wrong that I started all this because I was annoyed at having to nag him and wanted a more reliable way to get him to put his clothes in the hamper? Even though the (empirically sound) advice only told me to frame the same content—“Floor bad, hamper good”—in a more positive light, expressing happiness and gratitude when things go right, rather than irritation and disappointment when things go wrong? Even though once I shook myself of the nagging mindset the happiness and gratitude was not grudgingly given, was not an inaccurate portrayal of my now-happier mental state, was not intended to belittle my husband, but only to make us both happier AND get him to put the clothes in the hamper?
I think there is a difference. You’re right that all our behavior has or can have a reinforcing effect on other people. But smiles, and frowns, and thank-yous and such aren’t therefore just reinforcers. When I smile at someone, I express something like affection, and if I don’t feel any affection, I smile falsely. All these kinds of behaviors are the sorts of things that can be done honestly or falsely, and we ought to do them honestly. We do this with children, but with adults it’s disrespectful.
It might be possible to smile at someone for the sake of reinforcing some behavior of theirs, and to feel affection all the while, but my sense is that either a smile is an expression of affection, or it is done for some ulterior end.
I think your initial reaction to PUA is spot on. It’s a monstrous practice.
Here’s where I think human thinking is more complicated, muddled, and mutually-reinforcing than you say. In the example of saying “Thank you,” is it really so inconceivable that someone might say “Thank you,” while thinking (or, more likely, wordlessly intuiting) something along the lines of “I’m grateful and happy that this person did this, and I would like them to do it again”? In fact, much of these “reinforcement” or “animal training” tips, while phrased repulsively, mostly end up advising, “Remember to consistently express the gratitude you feel , and refrain from expressing any annoyance you might feel.”
Here’s what I might think, if I were the wife in that example: “Not only does nagging and expressing annoyance when I feel my reasonable expectations were not met belittle and irritate my husband, it doesn’t even work. He still doesn’t put the damn clothes in the damn hamper! We’re both less happy, and I didn’t even get him to change.” If I understand you correctly, that last part, where I discuss the efficacy of my nagging at getting me what I want, sounds dishonestly manipulative to you.
We all expect things from others, and we all care about others. Is it always, inevitably wrong to sully considerations of caring/being a nice person with considerations of ensuring your expectations and needs get met? Or is it that the only legitimate way to get other human beings to meet your expectations is to sit them down and explain it all to them, even if they’re annoyed and made unhappy by this Talk and its lack of emotional salience means it doesn’t work?
Saying “Thank you” and ignoring the clothes that don’t get put in the hamper works. It bypasses defensive, angry, annoyed reactions to nagging. It accurately expresses that clothes-in-the-hamper make me happy—in fact, more directly than the nagging method did, because the nagging method required the husband to infer that clothes-on-floor causes irate nagging, therefore clothes-in-the-hamper must cause happiness and gratitude. He’s happy, because he feels appreciated and doesn’t feel like he’s a teenager again being prodded by his mother. I’m happy, because I don’t feel like a grumpy middle-aged mother of a teenager. The clothes are in the hamper.
Was it wrong that I started all this because I was annoyed at having to nag him and wanted a more reliable way to get him to put his clothes in the hamper? Even though the (empirically sound) advice only told me to frame the same content—“Floor bad, hamper good”—in a more positive light, expressing happiness and gratitude when things go right, rather than irritation and disappointment when things go wrong? Even though once I shook myself of the nagging mindset the happiness and gratitude was not grudgingly given, was not an inaccurate portrayal of my now-happier mental state, was not intended to belittle my husband, but only to make us both happier AND get him to put the clothes in the hamper?