Regarding the bleach, no evidence was ever presented that anything had been bleached. This story took on a life of it’s own after the phony receipts story began circulating. I believe the Judge blocked at least one officer from testifying that he smelled bleach, and was only allowed to say that Sollecito’s apartment smelled “clean,” because the bleach smell was not listed in the initial report, and was added later, after the false reports about the receipts.
Despite the deference True Justice shows for every bit of evidence that favors Knox’s guilt, Kokamani’s testimony was ludicrous. He claimed that when he saw Knox, Sollecito and Guede together, that Sollecito (a meek computer nerd by all acounts), punched him in the face, and that Knox whipped out a 16 inch (!!!) knife, and said “Come here you! I’ll show you!” and that he escaped by hurling olives and a cell phone at her. His testimony contradicted his original statement on many key points, and he had been arrested on drug charges before his testimony.
Regarding the footprints, my understanding is that two bloody shoe prints were found. One in Kercher’s room that matched Rudy Guede, and another on the bath mat in the bathroom, that was a partial. From everything I’ve read, the partial print in the bathroom is a mess. It’s certainly hard to tell anything from the photos. At various points, the prosecution said it was Knox’s, then Guede’s, then Sollecito’s. The defenses expert witness made a strong case that it was Guede’s, but I don’t think anyone can conclusively prove anything one way or the other because it’s only a partial print.
The other footprints were revealed by Luminol, but what True Justice leaves out is that every single one (except for the two I mentioned above), tested negative for the presence of blood. If the footprints weren’t bloody, they don’t really say anything about the crime, especially since Knox and Sollecito admit to being in the house that morning, before the body was discovered.
There are two good papers on the footprints at friendsofamandaknox dot org. Of course they’re biased in Amanda’s favor, but not any more so than True Justice is in the other direction.
I’m not surprised that some of Kercher’s blood was mixed with Knox’s DNA in the bathroom, since Knox’s DNA could’ve come from anything. If a drop of blood splashed onto a dead skin cell of Knox’s, the result would’ve been DNA from both women in the drop of blood. And that doesn’t take into account the sloppy (by U.S. standards) forensics work done by the Italian police who could’ve easily, and innocently, intermingled DNA which is, often, invisible to the naked eye.
This is apparently what happened with the bra clasp which was left sitting on the floor for 47 days, was moved several times by unknown persons, and contains the DNA of at least three other people (and those people are not Kercher, Knox, Guede, or the other roommates or their boyfriends). The DNA either belongs to police who were not following procedure, or was picked up in the lab due to improper handling.
In the crime scene photos, it doesn’t appear there is any glass on top of the clothes, nor did the police present photos of such a thing at trial. One of the biggest misconceptions is that the glass was on top of Kercher’s clothes in her room. If this is true, the intruder could hardly have ripped Kercher’s clothes off before breaking in through the window, but in fact the clothes were in Filomena’s room. She testified she didn’t leave any clothes out, hence the claim the break in was staged. But Filomena also could be wrong, she certainly wouldn’t be the first witness to misremember something. Also, Filomena was allowed into her room no less than three times before the police finally sealed it, so it’s hard to say exactly how the clothes and glass were intermingled before they were disturbed. It’s possible the break-in was staged, but given Guede’s past burglaries, and Occam’s Razor, it seems likely that Guede broke into the house. If the break-in was staged, the prosecution did not manage to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, at least not to my mind.
Last, I posted a separate comment with the link to the Daily Mail story about Guede’s other break-ins.
You seem to be privy to a lot of information that I’m not, were you at the trial, or otherwise have better knowledge that the sourced information on the internet? Or is it from reading the 100-page Judge’s report of the Guede case? I haven’t heard before many of the things you’ve mentioned in your previous post. Also, some of the things seem to contradict what I’ve quoted above, a lot coming from the translation of Judge’s summary. For example:
″ I believe the Judge blocked at least one officer from testifying that he smelled bleach”
The specific details of Kokamani’s testimony.
Information like ” At various points, the prosecution said it was Knox’s, then Guede’s, then Sollecito’s”.
The papers on friendsofamandaknox don’t give any sources. How do we know the information is good? I’m sure we could level the same criticism to truejustice.org, but many of the details they have linked to outside sources.
That the mixed DNA can easily be explained away, and DNA can be easily contaminated (there are various expert witnesses at the Guede trial who state otherwise)
That the bra clasp contained DNA of 3 other people.
“it doesn’t appear there is any glass on top of the clothes”, this contradicts what I’ve read from the Judge’s report. You then go on to explain how glass could have got on top of the clothes (filomena allowed back in to the room), so I’m not sure which you are stating?
Regarding the Daily Mail story—as other posters have mentioned, the Daily Mail certainly isn’t a reliable news source, unfortunately. And in general, even a well respected media source alone probably isn’t good enough as a source, given how misreported the case has been (like the bleach receipt, the 14-hour interrogation, etc)
So again, I’m still not sure the truejustice.org summary of the Judge’s document on the Guede case should be considered reliable, do you doubt some of the points? I’m using this to base a lot of my reasoning.
If it is an accurate summary, then it represents the decision of a large panel of law experts, that disagree with many of your arguments. So it seems either you are suggested (a) this translation Judge’s summary is inaccurate, or (b) you disagree with the decision of the Judge and panel on many key points. If it’s (a), I would certainly like to read a better translation. If (b), why do you think you are better qualified to make decisions on forensic evidence than a panel of legal experts?
I think in the end I will have to wait 90 days for the summary of the case to be made publicly available to make my own decision on the likelihood of guilt. There are still great disparages between the “pro” and “con” sites about what happened in the court room, and exactly what evidence was and was not presented in court. You seem to disagree with the Judge’s decisions in the G case a lot (that the break-in was not faked; that the DNA evidence is unreliable; that the eyewitness testimony should not be admitted as evidence). What we do know is that the Judge, along with a large panel of legal experts, did in fact accept this evidence. Is it not reasonable (and rational) for me to accept the decisions of experts in the field?
I’m with Nick—there are very few primary sources available in English, and none of the stuff people are linking to, even the articles in mainstream media, seems like a completely reliable source to me—especially on all these he said/she said issues of what evidence was actually adduced in court and if so whether it was effectively refuted.
Regarding luminol footprints, I’ve seen statements that essentially if the blood is so week that its only revealed by luminol, the its highly feasible that there won’t be enough material to test for blood. Yes, the luminol can’t prove the prints are blood. But they’re there, only a few of them, in the immediate vicinity of the crime. As I posted in another post, what prompted police to look for them was the half-print in blood on the bath mat. Were were the rest of the bare foot-prints leading up to that bath mat? There weren’t any visible in the bedroom, but smears could have wiped them away.
Applying rationality-
If the footprints in the hall are Knox’s from the shower that morning, then there must have been enough blood for knox to make 2 full left foot prints, yet so little blood that it wasn’t visible to knox taking her shower, nor was there any sufficient amount to test for blood. Does that seem a rational argument?
If its some other substance, then the situation is that there just happens to be three bare foot prints limited to the area outside the door that are revealed in luminol, that are compatible with both Knox and Sollecito, but none other. That doesn’t seem a rational argument either.
And regarding the floating DNA; there’s sufficient Sollecito DNA floating around the house to be transferred to the bra clasp to be found “in abundant” measures, yet none really revealed elsewhere; yet the limited amounts congealed like a star being born to be found on the clasp. There’s sufficient DNA of Knox to be found in multiple blood drops, including the bedroom with the breakin, yet we accept at face value the “no DNA in the bedroom” argument heard round the world.
As for the footprint comparison between Sollecito, Guede, and the Luminol print found at the friends of amanda knox website, I knew upon looking at it immediately that they were a little ‘free’ with resizing the prints of the defendants to fit the print on the mat. Knox and Sollecito have different sized feet, but they present them as the same.
Hi Nick,
Thanks for the response.
Regarding the bleach, no evidence was ever presented that anything had been bleached. This story took on a life of it’s own after the phony receipts story began circulating. I believe the Judge blocked at least one officer from testifying that he smelled bleach, and was only allowed to say that Sollecito’s apartment smelled “clean,” because the bleach smell was not listed in the initial report, and was added later, after the false reports about the receipts.
Despite the deference True Justice shows for every bit of evidence that favors Knox’s guilt, Kokamani’s testimony was ludicrous. He claimed that when he saw Knox, Sollecito and Guede together, that Sollecito (a meek computer nerd by all acounts), punched him in the face, and that Knox whipped out a 16 inch (!!!) knife, and said “Come here you! I’ll show you!” and that he escaped by hurling olives and a cell phone at her. His testimony contradicted his original statement on many key points, and he had been arrested on drug charges before his testimony.
Regarding the footprints, my understanding is that two bloody shoe prints were found. One in Kercher’s room that matched Rudy Guede, and another on the bath mat in the bathroom, that was a partial. From everything I’ve read, the partial print in the bathroom is a mess. It’s certainly hard to tell anything from the photos. At various points, the prosecution said it was Knox’s, then Guede’s, then Sollecito’s. The defenses expert witness made a strong case that it was Guede’s, but I don’t think anyone can conclusively prove anything one way or the other because it’s only a partial print.
The other footprints were revealed by Luminol, but what True Justice leaves out is that every single one (except for the two I mentioned above), tested negative for the presence of blood. If the footprints weren’t bloody, they don’t really say anything about the crime, especially since Knox and Sollecito admit to being in the house that morning, before the body was discovered.
There are two good papers on the footprints at friendsofamandaknox dot org. Of course they’re biased in Amanda’s favor, but not any more so than True Justice is in the other direction.
I’m not surprised that some of Kercher’s blood was mixed with Knox’s DNA in the bathroom, since Knox’s DNA could’ve come from anything. If a drop of blood splashed onto a dead skin cell of Knox’s, the result would’ve been DNA from both women in the drop of blood. And that doesn’t take into account the sloppy (by U.S. standards) forensics work done by the Italian police who could’ve easily, and innocently, intermingled DNA which is, often, invisible to the naked eye.
This is apparently what happened with the bra clasp which was left sitting on the floor for 47 days, was moved several times by unknown persons, and contains the DNA of at least three other people (and those people are not Kercher, Knox, Guede, or the other roommates or their boyfriends). The DNA either belongs to police who were not following procedure, or was picked up in the lab due to improper handling.
In the crime scene photos, it doesn’t appear there is any glass on top of the clothes, nor did the police present photos of such a thing at trial. One of the biggest misconceptions is that the glass was on top of Kercher’s clothes in her room. If this is true, the intruder could hardly have ripped Kercher’s clothes off before breaking in through the window, but in fact the clothes were in Filomena’s room. She testified she didn’t leave any clothes out, hence the claim the break in was staged. But Filomena also could be wrong, she certainly wouldn’t be the first witness to misremember something. Also, Filomena was allowed into her room no less than three times before the police finally sealed it, so it’s hard to say exactly how the clothes and glass were intermingled before they were disturbed. It’s possible the break-in was staged, but given Guede’s past burglaries, and Occam’s Razor, it seems likely that Guede broke into the house. If the break-in was staged, the prosecution did not manage to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, at least not to my mind.
Last, I posted a separate comment with the link to the Daily Mail story about Guede’s other break-ins.
You seem to be privy to a lot of information that I’m not, were you at the trial, or otherwise have better knowledge that the sourced information on the internet? Or is it from reading the 100-page Judge’s report of the Guede case? I haven’t heard before many of the things you’ve mentioned in your previous post. Also, some of the things seem to contradict what I’ve quoted above, a lot coming from the translation of Judge’s summary. For example:
″ I believe the Judge blocked at least one officer from testifying that he smelled bleach”
The specific details of Kokamani’s testimony.
Information like ” At various points, the prosecution said it was Knox’s, then Guede’s, then Sollecito’s”.
The papers on friendsofamandaknox don’t give any sources. How do we know the information is good? I’m sure we could level the same criticism to truejustice.org, but many of the details they have linked to outside sources.
That the mixed DNA can easily be explained away, and DNA can be easily contaminated (there are various expert witnesses at the Guede trial who state otherwise)
That the bra clasp contained DNA of 3 other people.
“it doesn’t appear there is any glass on top of the clothes”, this contradicts what I’ve read from the Judge’s report. You then go on to explain how glass could have got on top of the clothes (filomena allowed back in to the room), so I’m not sure which you are stating?
Regarding the Daily Mail story—as other posters have mentioned, the Daily Mail certainly isn’t a reliable news source, unfortunately. And in general, even a well respected media source alone probably isn’t good enough as a source, given how misreported the case has been (like the bleach receipt, the 14-hour interrogation, etc)
So again, I’m still not sure the truejustice.org summary of the Judge’s document on the Guede case should be considered reliable, do you doubt some of the points? I’m using this to base a lot of my reasoning.
If it is an accurate summary, then it represents the decision of a large panel of law experts, that disagree with many of your arguments. So it seems either you are suggested (a) this translation Judge’s summary is inaccurate, or (b) you disagree with the decision of the Judge and panel on many key points. If it’s (a), I would certainly like to read a better translation. If (b), why do you think you are better qualified to make decisions on forensic evidence than a panel of legal experts?
I think in the end I will have to wait 90 days for the summary of the case to be made publicly available to make my own decision on the likelihood of guilt. There are still great disparages between the “pro” and “con” sites about what happened in the court room, and exactly what evidence was and was not presented in court. You seem to disagree with the Judge’s decisions in the G case a lot (that the break-in was not faked; that the DNA evidence is unreliable; that the eyewitness testimony should not be admitted as evidence). What we do know is that the Judge, along with a large panel of legal experts, did in fact accept this evidence. Is it not reasonable (and rational) for me to accept the decisions of experts in the field?
I’m with Nick—there are very few primary sources available in English, and none of the stuff people are linking to, even the articles in mainstream media, seems like a completely reliable source to me—especially on all these he said/she said issues of what evidence was actually adduced in court and if so whether it was effectively refuted.
Regarding luminol footprints, I’ve seen statements that essentially if the blood is so week that its only revealed by luminol, the its highly feasible that there won’t be enough material to test for blood. Yes, the luminol can’t prove the prints are blood. But they’re there, only a few of them, in the immediate vicinity of the crime. As I posted in another post, what prompted police to look for them was the half-print in blood on the bath mat. Were were the rest of the bare foot-prints leading up to that bath mat? There weren’t any visible in the bedroom, but smears could have wiped them away.
Applying rationality- If the footprints in the hall are Knox’s from the shower that morning, then there must have been enough blood for knox to make 2 full left foot prints, yet so little blood that it wasn’t visible to knox taking her shower, nor was there any sufficient amount to test for blood. Does that seem a rational argument?
If its some other substance, then the situation is that there just happens to be three bare foot prints limited to the area outside the door that are revealed in luminol, that are compatible with both Knox and Sollecito, but none other. That doesn’t seem a rational argument either.
And regarding the floating DNA; there’s sufficient Sollecito DNA floating around the house to be transferred to the bra clasp to be found “in abundant” measures, yet none really revealed elsewhere; yet the limited amounts congealed like a star being born to be found on the clasp. There’s sufficient DNA of Knox to be found in multiple blood drops, including the bedroom with the breakin, yet we accept at face value the “no DNA in the bedroom” argument heard round the world.
As for the footprint comparison between Sollecito, Guede, and the Luminol print found at the friends of amanda knox website, I knew upon looking at it immediately that they were a little ‘free’ with resizing the prints of the defendants to fit the print on the mat. Knox and Sollecito have different sized feet, but they present them as the same.