This comment ruined my (initially very high) impression from your article. I appreciate that you are trying, and I believe in your good intentions, it’s just… you are doing it somewhat wrong. Not sure if I can explain it or provide a better advice.
Probably the essence is that you were strongly emotionally driven in your critique, but you seem to be also strongly emotionally driven in negotiating peace, and your offers are not well calibrated. You want to stop an unproductive debate, but your offer to MIRI to publish something on your blog seems like another round of the same debate. If you feel there was something wrong about your articles, why can’t you write it there, using your own words? (If I happen to step on someone’s toe, I apologize to them using my own words, instead of inviting them to post something on my facebook page.)
Even if you want to tap out of the debate instead of apologizing, you could do it by writing an article on your blog called “why I am tired of debating MIRI”, describing your reasons to stop debating it, or just the decision to stop debating it, even without any specific details. And then you could add the link to that article from the old MIRI-related articles. And then, just stop writing about MIRI, and stop editing any wiki pages about MIRI in any wiki. And that’s all. And to make it obvious to the “other side”, post the link to the article on your blog to LW. End of story.
Sorry for using this analogy, but once I had a stalker, and she couldn’t resist sending me e-mails, a few of them every day. And anything I did, or didn’t do, was just a pretext for sending another e-mail. Like, she wrote ten e-mails about how she wants to talk with me, or asking me what am I doing right now, or whether I have seen this or that article on the web. I wrote her to stop writing to me, because I don’t want to see her anymore, or talk with her anymore, or interact with her in any way anymore. She wrote back one e-mail saying she is sorry, another e-mail asking me to meet her so we can discuss our misunderstandings, another e-mail apologizing for asking me to meet her, another e-mail retracting the previous apology and saying she has nothing to apologize for and she actually hates me, yet another e-mail apologizing for the previous angry e-mail saying she didn’t mean it, and then another e-mail asking who is the girl I have recently “friended” on facebook. (Long story short, I blocked her on every social network, deleted all her e-mails without a reply, and kept debating only on English-speaking websites for a few years, because I know she doesn’t speak English.)
The point I want to make here is that while you believe your offer to MIRI is generous, to MIRI it may seem like yet another step in an endless unproductive debate they want to avoid completely. Like me receiving an e-mail with an apology from my stalker, when what I really wanted was that she would simply stop writing me new e-mails and preferably forget that I exist, so I can forget her, too. I can’t speak for MIRI, but my guess is that what they really want from you is simply to stop; not to provide them yet another avenue for debate. Just fucking stop and let everyone gradually forget the past. Even writing the one last good-bye article on your blog is likely to lead to another “this time really last, but I had to clarify a few details” article, etc. This is the only real way to break the cycle, and only you can do it.
If you feel there was something wrong about your articles, why can’t you write it there, using your own words?
I made bad experiences with admitting something like that. I once wrote on Facebook that I am not a high IQ individual and got responses suggesting that now everyone can completely ignore me and everything I say is garbage. If I look at the comments to this post, my perception is that many people understood it as some kind of confession that everything I ever wrote is just wrong and that they can subsequently ignore everything else I might ever write. If the disclaimer was written by a third independent party, then I thought that this would show that I am willing to let the opponents voice their disagreement, and that I concede the possibility of being wrong.
I noticed that many people who read my blog take it much too seriously. I got emails praising me for what I have written. Which made me feel very uncomfortable, since I have not invested the necessary thoughtfulness in wirting those posts. They were never meant for other people to form a definitive opinion about MIRI, like some rigorous review by GiveWell. But this does not mean that they are random bullshit as people like to conclude when I admit this.
Sorry for using this analogy, but once I had a stalker, and she couldn’t resist sending me e-mails, a few of them every day. And anything I did, or didn’t do, was just a pretext for sending another e-mail. Like, she wrote ten e-mails about how she wants to talk with me, or asking me what am I doing right now, or whether I have seen this or that article on the web.
Hmm...I think my problems would be analog to loving you but wanting to correct some character mistakes you have. Noticing that you perceive this to be stalking would make me try to communicate that I really don’t want to harass you, since I actually like you very much, but that I think you should stop farting in public.
The point I want to make here is that while you believe your offer to MIRI is generous, to MIRI it may seem like yet another step in an endless unproductive debate they want to avoid completely.
This seems obvious when it comes to your stalker scenario. But everything that involves MIRI involves a lot of low probability high utility considerations which really break my mind. I thought years about whether I should stop criticizing MIRI because I might endanger a future galactic civilization if the wrong person reads my posts and amplifies their effect. But I know that fully embracing this line of reasoning would completely break my mind.
I am not joking here. I find a lot of MIRI’s beliefs to be absurd, yet I have always been susceptible to their line of argumentation. I believe that it is very important to solve this meta-issue of how to decide such things rationally. And the issues surrounding MIRI seem to be perfectly suited to highlight this problematic issue.
If I look at the comments to this post, my perception is that many people understood it as some kind of confession that everything I ever wrote is just wrong and that they can subsequently ignore everything else I might ever write.
If it helps, I believe your criticism is a mix of good and bad parts, but the bad parts make it really difficult for the reader to focus on the good parts, so at the end even the good parts are kinda wasted. It would be better if you could separate them, but the problem is probably what you describe as being “easily overwhelmed”.
You take this stuff really seriously, which in some way is impressive. Unfortunately, “taking stuff seriously” does not guarantee rational approach. (It could actually be the other way round; the higher stakes, the more difficult it is to keep a calm head.)
Also, the problem is not the criticism you have or the questions you ask, but the way how you do that. For example, if you find an old quote by Eliezer which seems problematic, the better way would be to post it in an open thread and ask: “I find this very disturbing. Does Eliezer still believe it or not? If yes, please explain. If no, please provide evidence of the change of mind.” Instead, the way you handled this, you made a few enemies.
If the topic is so important to you, you should have handled it better. At this moment, it is probably better to just stop and relax. (And perhaps try a better approach one year later.)
This comment ruined my (initially very high) impression from your article. I appreciate that you are trying, and I believe in your good intentions, it’s just… you are doing it somewhat wrong. Not sure if I can explain it or provide a better advice.
Probably the essence is that you were strongly emotionally driven in your critique, but you seem to be also strongly emotionally driven in negotiating peace, and your offers are not well calibrated. You want to stop an unproductive debate, but your offer to MIRI to publish something on your blog seems like another round of the same debate. If you feel there was something wrong about your articles, why can’t you write it there, using your own words? (If I happen to step on someone’s toe, I apologize to them using my own words, instead of inviting them to post something on my facebook page.)
Even if you want to tap out of the debate instead of apologizing, you could do it by writing an article on your blog called “why I am tired of debating MIRI”, describing your reasons to stop debating it, or just the decision to stop debating it, even without any specific details. And then you could add the link to that article from the old MIRI-related articles. And then, just stop writing about MIRI, and stop editing any wiki pages about MIRI in any wiki. And that’s all. And to make it obvious to the “other side”, post the link to the article on your blog to LW. End of story.
Sorry for using this analogy, but once I had a stalker, and she couldn’t resist sending me e-mails, a few of them every day. And anything I did, or didn’t do, was just a pretext for sending another e-mail. Like, she wrote ten e-mails about how she wants to talk with me, or asking me what am I doing right now, or whether I have seen this or that article on the web. I wrote her to stop writing to me, because I don’t want to see her anymore, or talk with her anymore, or interact with her in any way anymore. She wrote back one e-mail saying she is sorry, another e-mail asking me to meet her so we can discuss our misunderstandings, another e-mail apologizing for asking me to meet her, another e-mail retracting the previous apology and saying she has nothing to apologize for and she actually hates me, yet another e-mail apologizing for the previous angry e-mail saying she didn’t mean it, and then another e-mail asking who is the girl I have recently “friended” on facebook. (Long story short, I blocked her on every social network, deleted all her e-mails without a reply, and kept debating only on English-speaking websites for a few years, because I know she doesn’t speak English.)
The point I want to make here is that while you believe your offer to MIRI is generous, to MIRI it may seem like yet another step in an endless unproductive debate they want to avoid completely. Like me receiving an e-mail with an apology from my stalker, when what I really wanted was that she would simply stop writing me new e-mails and preferably forget that I exist, so I can forget her, too. I can’t speak for MIRI, but my guess is that what they really want from you is simply to stop; not to provide them yet another avenue for debate. Just fucking stop and let everyone gradually forget the past. Even writing the one last good-bye article on your blog is likely to lead to another “this time really last, but I had to clarify a few details” article, etc. This is the only real way to break the cycle, and only you can do it.
I made bad experiences with admitting something like that. I once wrote on Facebook that I am not a high IQ individual and got responses suggesting that now everyone can completely ignore me and everything I say is garbage. If I look at the comments to this post, my perception is that many people understood it as some kind of confession that everything I ever wrote is just wrong and that they can subsequently ignore everything else I might ever write. If the disclaimer was written by a third independent party, then I thought that this would show that I am willing to let the opponents voice their disagreement, and that I concede the possibility of being wrong.
I noticed that many people who read my blog take it much too seriously. I got emails praising me for what I have written. Which made me feel very uncomfortable, since I have not invested the necessary thoughtfulness in wirting those posts. They were never meant for other people to form a definitive opinion about MIRI, like some rigorous review by GiveWell. But this does not mean that they are random bullshit as people like to conclude when I admit this.
Hmm...I think my problems would be analog to loving you but wanting to correct some character mistakes you have. Noticing that you perceive this to be stalking would make me try to communicate that I really don’t want to harass you, since I actually like you very much, but that I think you should stop farting in public.
This seems obvious when it comes to your stalker scenario. But everything that involves MIRI involves a lot of low probability high utility considerations which really break my mind. I thought years about whether I should stop criticizing MIRI because I might endanger a future galactic civilization if the wrong person reads my posts and amplifies their effect. But I know that fully embracing this line of reasoning would completely break my mind.
I am not joking here. I find a lot of MIRI’s beliefs to be absurd, yet I have always been susceptible to their line of argumentation. I believe that it is very important to solve this meta-issue of how to decide such things rationally. And the issues surrounding MIRI seem to be perfectly suited to highlight this problematic issue.
If it helps, I believe your criticism is a mix of good and bad parts, but the bad parts make it really difficult for the reader to focus on the good parts, so at the end even the good parts are kinda wasted. It would be better if you could separate them, but the problem is probably what you describe as being “easily overwhelmed”.
You take this stuff really seriously, which in some way is impressive. Unfortunately, “taking stuff seriously” does not guarantee rational approach. (It could actually be the other way round; the higher stakes, the more difficult it is to keep a calm head.)
Also, the problem is not the criticism you have or the questions you ask, but the way how you do that. For example, if you find an old quote by Eliezer which seems problematic, the better way would be to post it in an open thread and ask: “I find this very disturbing. Does Eliezer still believe it or not? If yes, please explain. If no, please provide evidence of the change of mind.” Instead, the way you handled this, you made a few enemies.
If the topic is so important to you, you should have handled it better. At this moment, it is probably better to just stop and relax. (And perhaps try a better approach one year later.)
A mixture of good and bad parts is exactly how I would summarize LW.
And while you are iimpugning Alexander rationality, recall that he was the one to solicit input from domain experts.
“Something made out of atoms” is exactly how I would summarize most things.