I’m a member of the NYC group. I was surprised at how quickly I felt close to the people there. The line that occurs to me from HP:MoR is:
One of my tutors once said that people form close friendships by knowing private things about each other, and the reason most people don’t make close friends is because they’re too embarrassed to share anything really important about themselves
I think that’s a big part of the key. That and the hugging. I still feel a little awkward about that, like hugging is something that should be earned and I haven’t earned it yet, but it definitely helped.
We’re not there yet, and I’m not sure everyone wants this for the NYC group in particular, but I would like there to be more/better secular communities that fill the niches generally controlled by religion. Frankly, I think it’s perfectly okay to describe oneself as “religious”, even if your religion is Secular Humanism or Rationality or whatever it is that you believe in that moves you.
My personal experiences with death:
My grandmother died last year. The funeral was a very religious ceremony, which I didn’t mind. She was Catholic, she lived a Catholic life, and most of the people mourning were Catholic. To ignore that (silly as I my find their beliefs) would have been disrespectful.
But last months my two dogs both died (a few weeks apart. Their deaths were not related but the coincidence made it harder. They were 14 and 19). My family dug a grave and read some poems, sang some songs and said a few words.
And was profoundly, profoundly annoyed that although 3⁄4 of us were atheists, the most moving things anyone had to say stemmed from a religious viewpoint. There was an incredibly moving essay about the things dogs do for us and how they slow down in their later years until finally they run down a hole where we can’t follow them, and find themselves in a beautiful meadow where they can run around forever. The full essay was 2 pages long and was very beautiful, but when we got to the end I just felt so mad.
We didn’t read the essay again when the second dog died (it was too recent and it was a long essay and it felt weird to do so). I spent the afternoon trying to think of something to say. I’m not even sure whether this is accurate (my knowledge of quantum mechanics is pretty awful) but as we buried her I said “According to the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, there’s a universe out there where Whiskers is still bounding around like she did 10 years ago.”
It was the best I could come up with. It felt like less of a lie to me.
I also sang the Kender Mourning Song, a poem from a fantasy novel that I always thought was beautiful and want sung at my funeral. What I realized I liked most about it (but not until I sung it then) is that it’s a sad and beautiful song without mentioning anything about an afterlife. It’s not a “Lifeist” song (it’s clearly written from a standpoint of “death is part of the natural order of things, and we can accept it”), but if you’re at a funeral that doesn’t involve cryonics, I think it’s a perfectly good way of dealing with the issue. (For the record, while doesn’t HAVE to be part of the natural order, I have no problem with accepting it as such for the time being)
Never thought of it that way: I’ve always thought Donne’s Holy Sonnet X was an incredibly powerful text for a funeral (more so than the heaven and harps approach)for those who believe in the religion. But the main thrust of it would be highly suitable in a cryogenics setting.
I read Donne at my dad’s funeral. I don’t know how many countless times he quoted “For whom the bell tolls” (Meditaiton 17), but everyone recognized it when I read it. That actually isn’t the line that stands out for me now, though. “Any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind” carries a lot of impact for me. My dad’s death just made me more aware in general, I think, of just how big of an impact an individual’s life has on the people around them.
The quote you gave was very insightful, and to me underscores why you need communities. You need to take time getting to know people; no one normally just bares their soul the first time they meet someone new. The whole group doesn’t have to be ready for that, or even intend it. The bonds just form naturally (hugging can help that).
I think that death and mourning is like everything else, in that religious language and viewpoints have been the only game in town for the longest time. Like that essay you mentioned (do you have a link), some of it can be very beautiful. But the “end”, so to speak, is always saccharine, and doesn’t really speak to the truth of the intense emotions surrounding ones loss.
Thanks for that poem, too. Is there commonly used music for it?
The quote you gave was very insightful, and to me underscores why you need communities. You need to take time getting to know people
Oddly enough I hadn’t thought of it that way—I think the NYC community is successful because people are encouraged to share things about themselves sooner rather than after they’ve become “comfortable” (or, I guess, just tries to make them comfortable sooner). Maybe that’s what you meant. I think both are valid (communities give you time to feel comfortable with large groups of people, and good communities make you feel comfortable sooner).
Kender Mourning Song
There is not commonly used music that I know of. I do have a particular tune I sing it to. (Are you Filk Aaron or a different one? There were a lot of Aarons)
I’ve been looking for the dog essay online, but haven’t found it. It’s possible it was actually written by our neighbor, who was in the process of becoming a pastor.
Yeah, I think we’re on the same page with people getting to know each other in groups. I was actually surprised and humbled by seeing how much my friends truly cared about me.
I’m not the filking Aaron, just the lurking one :) We haven’t met, it’s just that I didn’t feel like just using my nickname when the conversation got more serious.
(wait, to clarify: you’re an Aaron from the NYC group [because we have a lot of them], or an Aaron from Less Wrong who figured it’d be silly to have a conversation about being personal while using a pseudonym? I’m Raymond, in any case. [“Raemon” is pronounced just line Raymond if you leave off the D. Most people pronounce it “Ray-o-mon” like I’m some kind of pokemon, which I suppose I have no one to blame but myself for])
Edit: Wow, I totally did not need those parenthesis at all, but I thought I did when I started and I kinda like them now that I’m done.
I’m a member of the NYC group. I was surprised at how quickly I felt close to the people there. The line that occurs to me from HP:MoR is:
I think that’s a big part of the key. That and the hugging. I still feel a little awkward about that, like hugging is something that should be earned and I haven’t earned it yet, but it definitely helped.
We’re not there yet, and I’m not sure everyone wants this for the NYC group in particular, but I would like there to be more/better secular communities that fill the niches generally controlled by religion. Frankly, I think it’s perfectly okay to describe oneself as “religious”, even if your religion is Secular Humanism or Rationality or whatever it is that you believe in that moves you.
My personal experiences with death:
My grandmother died last year. The funeral was a very religious ceremony, which I didn’t mind. She was Catholic, she lived a Catholic life, and most of the people mourning were Catholic. To ignore that (silly as I my find their beliefs) would have been disrespectful.
But last months my two dogs both died (a few weeks apart. Their deaths were not related but the coincidence made it harder. They were 14 and 19). My family dug a grave and read some poems, sang some songs and said a few words.
And was profoundly, profoundly annoyed that although 3⁄4 of us were atheists, the most moving things anyone had to say stemmed from a religious viewpoint. There was an incredibly moving essay about the things dogs do for us and how they slow down in their later years until finally they run down a hole where we can’t follow them, and find themselves in a beautiful meadow where they can run around forever. The full essay was 2 pages long and was very beautiful, but when we got to the end I just felt so mad.
We didn’t read the essay again when the second dog died (it was too recent and it was a long essay and it felt weird to do so). I spent the afternoon trying to think of something to say. I’m not even sure whether this is accurate (my knowledge of quantum mechanics is pretty awful) but as we buried her I said “According to the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, there’s a universe out there where Whiskers is still bounding around like she did 10 years ago.”
It was the best I could come up with. It felt like less of a lie to me.
I also sang the Kender Mourning Song, a poem from a fantasy novel that I always thought was beautiful and want sung at my funeral. What I realized I liked most about it (but not until I sung it then) is that it’s a sad and beautiful song without mentioning anything about an afterlife. It’s not a “Lifeist” song (it’s clearly written from a standpoint of “death is part of the natural order of things, and we can accept it”), but if you’re at a funeral that doesn’t involve cryonics, I think it’s a perfectly good way of dealing with the issue. (For the record, while doesn’t HAVE to be part of the natural order, I have no problem with accepting it as such for the time being)
Perhaps the best thing to say at a funeral is “we will avenge your death!” (on death itself).
Never thought of it that way: I’ve always thought Donne’s Holy Sonnet X was an incredibly powerful text for a funeral (more so than the heaven and harps approach)for those who believe in the religion. But the main thrust of it would be highly suitable in a cryogenics setting.
http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/sonnet10.php
“One short sleep past, we wake eternally,
And Death shall be no more ; Death, thou shalt die.”
I read Donne at my dad’s funeral. I don’t know how many countless times he quoted “For whom the bell tolls” (Meditaiton 17), but everyone recognized it when I read it. That actually isn’t the line that stands out for me now, though. “Any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind” carries a lot of impact for me. My dad’s death just made me more aware in general, I think, of just how big of an impact an individual’s life has on the people around them.
Raemon,
The quote you gave was very insightful, and to me underscores why you need communities. You need to take time getting to know people; no one normally just bares their soul the first time they meet someone new. The whole group doesn’t have to be ready for that, or even intend it. The bonds just form naturally (hugging can help that).
I think that death and mourning is like everything else, in that religious language and viewpoints have been the only game in town for the longest time. Like that essay you mentioned (do you have a link), some of it can be very beautiful. But the “end”, so to speak, is always saccharine, and doesn’t really speak to the truth of the intense emotions surrounding ones loss.
Thanks for that poem, too. Is there commonly used music for it?
Aaron (oh, and I’m Aaron btw)
Oddly enough I hadn’t thought of it that way—I think the NYC community is successful because people are encouraged to share things about themselves sooner rather than after they’ve become “comfortable” (or, I guess, just tries to make them comfortable sooner). Maybe that’s what you meant. I think both are valid (communities give you time to feel comfortable with large groups of people, and good communities make you feel comfortable sooner).
There is not commonly used music that I know of. I do have a particular tune I sing it to. (Are you Filk Aaron or a different one? There were a lot of Aarons)
I’ve been looking for the dog essay online, but haven’t found it. It’s possible it was actually written by our neighbor, who was in the process of becoming a pastor.
Yeah, I think we’re on the same page with people getting to know each other in groups. I was actually surprised and humbled by seeing how much my friends truly cared about me.
I’m not the filking Aaron, just the lurking one :) We haven’t met, it’s just that I didn’t feel like just using my nickname when the conversation got more serious.
(wait, to clarify: you’re an Aaron from the NYC group [because we have a lot of them], or an Aaron from Less Wrong who figured it’d be silly to have a conversation about being personal while using a pseudonym? I’m Raymond, in any case. [“Raemon” is pronounced just line Raymond if you leave off the D. Most people pronounce it “Ray-o-mon” like I’m some kind of pokemon, which I suppose I have no one to blame but myself for])
Edit: Wow, I totally did not need those parenthesis at all, but I thought I did when I started and I kinda like them now that I’m done.
“or an Aaron from Less Wrong who figured it’d be silly to have a conversation about being personal while using a pseudonym?”
That one :)