Or they are not a member of the in-group. Both are probably relevant, in this instance.
Imagine if I did that to Yudkowsky.
When Eliezer behaves poorly criticizm of said behavior tends to be well received. People pay a lot of attention to Eliezer when he makes his rationality posts but also care a lot more when he does things they don’t like. Because what it says and does (in this context) matters a lot more.
If in doubt either that direct criticism of Yudkowsky can be well received or that said comments can be upvoted dramatically grab Wei_Dai’s user comments script, grab mine, and sort by vote. Last time I checked a couple of the top ten are actually examples of just that.
Sure, I have never called Yudkowsky an asshole (because he isn’t one) and even when I have criticized him I criticized a specific behavior rather than alleging an innate trait. I also have never told him to “fuck off”, although I have given him (sincere) advice to delegate his moderation authority to a SingInst minion who has better social skills and is more equipped to translate his goals into achieved outcomes.
I reject the claim that Eliezer gets anti-criticism privileges.
My comment was tongue in cheek, just a joke. I’m not planning to curse out Eliezer anytime soon. It was enjoyable from my perspective to imagine a stream of hundreds of downvotes flooding my comment and making this profile unusable.
I don’t think that Eliezer is immune to criticism. I do think he gets extra respect and politeness. The reasons for this are tied very closely to his past history of good content, but I bet that being a de facto leader of this site is also somewhat helpful. In quantitative terms I’m not sure whether or not he receives more or less criticism-per-content than other people, but suspect that he’s receiving more, because of his status as leader. In qualitative terms though, leaders generally are treated with more respect, and I don’t think that he’s an anomaly in that respect. I think the kind of criticism that he receives is probably generally nicer and better thought out, although he probably also receives more criticisms per content.
Despite that, he also seems more likely to draw the ire of ignorant and especially rude people. He might be receiving more respectful criticism but also more disrespectful criticism, and receiving less criticism with only moderate levels of respect. This is my current belief, now that I’ve thought about it a bit.
I also believe that he’s probably criticized less often by in-group members than other in-group members are. I think that the amount of content he produces makes this tricky to evaluate, though, and this is the conclusion that I’m least certain about.
My comment was tongue in cheek, just a joke. I’m not planning to curse out Eliezer anytime soon. It was enjoyable from my perspective to imagine a stream of hundreds of downvotes flooding my comment and making this profile unusable.
Of course, you said “imagine that ”. And so my reply is that your imagination produced flawed counterfactual predictions of the response and so conveys an incorrect picture of the actual world prior to the counterfactual modification.
I also believe that he’s probably criticized less often by in-group members than other in-group members are.
That would be something I might predict based on general understanding of how social groups work prior to exposure to the actual data stream of less wrong comments. However my actual observations tell me otherwise and so I would happily bet against you were such a thing to be measured. Eliezer is criticized more often than the median in-group member (for most reasonable interpretations of ‘criticism’ and ‘in group member’).
I intend no particular presumption by this so more by way of information: I am one of the most active participants here and suspect I pay a more than typical amount of attention to what is being criticizer by who, how such criticism is received and how the interplay of social dynamics and status (seems to) influence which criticisms can be (or are) given when and to whom. Mere criticism volume is a comparatively simple thing to keep an account of. This gives me enough confidence in how often Eliezer is criticized that I would consider the opportunity to bet at even odds that he is criticized more often than the median in-group member. In fact I would even be willing to strengthen my claim to refer to “criticism relative to contribution volume”.
The intended point was the literal one.
If someone can be told they are and asshole and to fuck off and that is accepted then they probably really are behaving like asshole.
Or they are not a member of the in-group. Both are probably relevant, in this instance.
Imagine if I did that to Yudkowsky.
When Eliezer behaves poorly criticizm of said behavior tends to be well received. People pay a lot of attention to Eliezer when he makes his rationality posts but also care a lot more when he does things they don’t like. Because what it says and does (in this context) matters a lot more.
If in doubt either that direct criticism of Yudkowsky can be well received or that said comments can be upvoted dramatically grab Wei_Dai’s user comments script, grab mine, and sort by vote. Last time I checked a couple of the top ten are actually examples of just that.
Sure, I have never called Yudkowsky an asshole (because he isn’t one) and even when I have criticized him I criticized a specific behavior rather than alleging an innate trait. I also have never told him to “fuck off”, although I have given him (sincere) advice to delegate his moderation authority to a SingInst minion who has better social skills and is more equipped to translate his goals into achieved outcomes.
I reject the claim that Eliezer gets anti-criticism privileges.
My comment was tongue in cheek, just a joke. I’m not planning to curse out Eliezer anytime soon. It was enjoyable from my perspective to imagine a stream of hundreds of downvotes flooding my comment and making this profile unusable.
I don’t think that Eliezer is immune to criticism. I do think he gets extra respect and politeness. The reasons for this are tied very closely to his past history of good content, but I bet that being a de facto leader of this site is also somewhat helpful. In quantitative terms I’m not sure whether or not he receives more or less criticism-per-content than other people, but suspect that he’s receiving more, because of his status as leader. In qualitative terms though, leaders generally are treated with more respect, and I don’t think that he’s an anomaly in that respect. I think the kind of criticism that he receives is probably generally nicer and better thought out, although he probably also receives more criticisms per content.
Despite that, he also seems more likely to draw the ire of ignorant and especially rude people. He might be receiving more respectful criticism but also more disrespectful criticism, and receiving less criticism with only moderate levels of respect. This is my current belief, now that I’ve thought about it a bit.
I also believe that he’s probably criticized less often by in-group members than other in-group members are. I think that the amount of content he produces makes this tricky to evaluate, though, and this is the conclusion that I’m least certain about.
Of course, you said “imagine that ”. And so my reply is that your imagination produced flawed counterfactual predictions of the response and so conveys an incorrect picture of the actual world prior to the counterfactual modification.
That would be something I might predict based on general understanding of how social groups work prior to exposure to the actual data stream of less wrong comments. However my actual observations tell me otherwise and so I would happily bet against you were such a thing to be measured. Eliezer is criticized more often than the median in-group member (for most reasonable interpretations of ‘criticism’ and ‘in group member’).
I intend no particular presumption by this so more by way of information: I am one of the most active participants here and suspect I pay a more than typical amount of attention to what is being criticizer by who, how such criticism is received and how the interplay of social dynamics and status (seems to) influence which criticisms can be (or are) given when and to whom. Mere criticism volume is a comparatively simple thing to keep an account of. This gives me enough confidence in how often Eliezer is criticized that I would consider the opportunity to bet at even odds that he is criticized more often than the median in-group member. In fact I would even be willing to strengthen my claim to refer to “criticism relative to contribution volume”.