Does that even work? I’m thinking that an arrogant person will generally shrug off the mortality thing and go on with being arrogant, barring some near-death experience.
as a force to act now
Or at least “this decade” rather than “some day”. But death seems like a steep cost for this benefit. Is there another way to get it? Like, if we’ve got immortal people anyway, we’re going to want to have a retirement equivalent, but it won’t be a matter of working forty years and taking the rest of your life off. What if we had a system whereby people took ten years off work after every thirty or so, with a guaranteed salary during that time that’s more than sufficient for living? Then you would have a specific timeframe in which you are expected to relax, take long vacations, knock off a life goal or two, that sort of thing.
That requires reworking social security / state pensions and probably requires a lot more wealth in general to enact. But we don’t currently have a cure for death, so there’s time to work out how to deal with a lack of death and enact those policies.
We are all arrogant to some degree or another, knowledge of or mortality helps keep it in check. What would the world look like with an unrestrained god complex?
Taking 10 years off after 30 years doesn’t seem to solve the problem of the psychological issue, in today’s world, as we get older we start noticing the weakness of our bodies which push us to act, since “if not now, when”.
Unless we solve the various cognitive biases we suffer from, extreme longevity seems like a mixed blessing at best, and it seems to me that it would cause more problems than it solves.
I agree that these arguments don’t decide the issue, but the counter argument of letting people choose doesn’t seem to me effective. Also, arguments about how we would be superbeings who are totally rational, may be applicable to some post-human existence, but would not help the argument that longevity research should be pursued today (since, e.g. there would likely be wars over who gets to use it which might kill even more people, as we see in the world today the problem with world hunger and disease is not primarily one of lack of technological or economic ability but rather one of sociopolitical institutions)
We are all arrogant to some degree or another, knowledge of or mortality helps keep it in check.
Do we have any evidence regarding this? I know there are parables serving to emphasize humility due to mortality, but I have no information on their effectiveness. It seems like it needs some immediacy to be effective, which means it only takes place when you start feeling old—I’m guessing this will be forties to sixties for most Westerners.
Taking 10 years off after 30 years doesn’t seem to solve the problem of the psychological issue, in today’s world, as we get older we start noticing the weakness of our bodies which push us to act, since “if not now, when”.
A well-funded, extended retirement is a perfect opportunity to do all the things you haven’t had time to do while working. The threat of having to work for another few decades should be a reasonable proxy for the fear of death.
Specifically, people don’t tell themselves they’ll put things off for thirty years until the next retirement phase; they tell themselves they’ll do it eventually. Thirty years is subjectively a very long time, and people won’t be inclined to happily delay for that long.
Also, arguments about how we would be superbeings who are totally rational
are not included in anything I said here. My suggestion would require large societal changes and provides no mechanism to enact them, but it accounts for normal people, not rational agents.
I would have to look around to see if there is non-anecdotal evidence, but anecdotally ~40 is when I have heard people start mentioning it.
I don’t think your proposal would work since I don’t think the time factor is the biggest issue, How often do people make big plans for summer vacation and not actually do them? They probably wouldn’t say “I’ll put it off for thirty years”, but rather repeatedly say ” I’ll put it off till tomorrow” .
They probably wouldn’t say “I’ll put it off for thirty years”, but rather repeatedly say ” I’ll put it off till tomorrow” .
And then they get a reminder that they only have a year left before they go back to work. And then they get a reminder that they only have six months left. Then three months. At that point, the time crunch is palpable. They have a concrete deadline, not a nebulous one.
And if they miss it? Well, they’ve learned for next time. That’s an option unavailable to a dead person.
That doesn’t strike me as how psychology works, since in the real world people often repeatedly make the same mistakes. It also seems that even if your proposal would work, it doesn’t address the original issue since you are assuming that the person has a clear idea of his goals and only needs time to pursue them, whereas I think the bigger issue which aging encourages is reorienting ones values.
I appreciate your taking the time to address my question, but it seems to me that this conversation isn’t really making progress so I will probably not respond to future comments on this thread. Thank you
Does that even work? I’m thinking that an arrogant person will generally shrug off the mortality thing and go on with being arrogant, barring some near-death experience.
Or at least “this decade” rather than “some day”. But death seems like a steep cost for this benefit. Is there another way to get it? Like, if we’ve got immortal people anyway, we’re going to want to have a retirement equivalent, but it won’t be a matter of working forty years and taking the rest of your life off. What if we had a system whereby people took ten years off work after every thirty or so, with a guaranteed salary during that time that’s more than sufficient for living? Then you would have a specific timeframe in which you are expected to relax, take long vacations, knock off a life goal or two, that sort of thing.
That requires reworking social security / state pensions and probably requires a lot more wealth in general to enact. But we don’t currently have a cure for death, so there’s time to work out how to deal with a lack of death and enact those policies.
We are all arrogant to some degree or another, knowledge of or mortality helps keep it in check. What would the world look like with an unrestrained god complex?
Taking 10 years off after 30 years doesn’t seem to solve the problem of the psychological issue, in today’s world, as we get older we start noticing the weakness of our bodies which push us to act, since “if not now, when”.
Unless we solve the various cognitive biases we suffer from, extreme longevity seems like a mixed blessing at best, and it seems to me that it would cause more problems than it solves.
I agree that these arguments don’t decide the issue, but the counter argument of letting people choose doesn’t seem to me effective. Also, arguments about how we would be superbeings who are totally rational, may be applicable to some post-human existence, but would not help the argument that longevity research should be pursued today (since, e.g. there would likely be wars over who gets to use it which might kill even more people, as we see in the world today the problem with world hunger and disease is not primarily one of lack of technological or economic ability but rather one of sociopolitical institutions)
Do we have any evidence regarding this? I know there are parables serving to emphasize humility due to mortality, but I have no information on their effectiveness. It seems like it needs some immediacy to be effective, which means it only takes place when you start feeling old—I’m guessing this will be forties to sixties for most Westerners.
A well-funded, extended retirement is a perfect opportunity to do all the things you haven’t had time to do while working. The threat of having to work for another few decades should be a reasonable proxy for the fear of death.
Specifically, people don’t tell themselves they’ll put things off for thirty years until the next retirement phase; they tell themselves they’ll do it eventually. Thirty years is subjectively a very long time, and people won’t be inclined to happily delay for that long.
are not included in anything I said here. My suggestion would require large societal changes and provides no mechanism to enact them, but it accounts for normal people, not rational agents.
I would have to look around to see if there is non-anecdotal evidence, but anecdotally ~40 is when I have heard people start mentioning it.
I don’t think your proposal would work since I don’t think the time factor is the biggest issue, How often do people make big plans for summer vacation and not actually do them? They probably wouldn’t say “I’ll put it off for thirty years”, but rather repeatedly say ” I’ll put it off till tomorrow” .
And then they get a reminder that they only have a year left before they go back to work. And then they get a reminder that they only have six months left. Then three months. At that point, the time crunch is palpable. They have a concrete deadline, not a nebulous one.
And if they miss it? Well, they’ve learned for next time. That’s an option unavailable to a dead person.
That doesn’t strike me as how psychology works, since in the real world people often repeatedly make the same mistakes. It also seems that even if your proposal would work, it doesn’t address the original issue since you are assuming that the person has a clear idea of his goals and only needs time to pursue them, whereas I think the bigger issue which aging encourages is reorienting ones values.
I appreciate your taking the time to address my question, but it seems to me that this conversation isn’t really making progress so I will probably not respond to future comments on this thread. Thank you