I wonder if it’d be out of place for us on LW to start explicitely noticing these argument levels in disputes here. Though it’d probably be a better norm to use this positively (point out “good DH7 argument there”) rather than negatively, which… come to think of it, would just be something of a DH2 argument in itself, harmful ammo for the sophisticated arguer.
Do I understand right, that the difference between DH4 and 5 is that DH4 doesn’t directly engage the previous person’s argument? And if only DH6 is “refuting the central point”, then Dh5 means “nitpicking”? So it seems to me a solid DH4 could tower above DH5.
If a senator says we should raise the salary of senators, you might reply: “Of course he’d say that; he’s a senator.” That might be relevant, but it doesn’t refute the original claim: “If there’s something wrong with the senator’s argument, you should say what it is; and if there isn’t, what difference does it make that he’s a senator?”
This is true but still, I’m inclined to think an ad hominem argument has some place in honest debate. If the real reason someone is advocating something is an unstated one, to do with their vested interests or psychological makeup or whatever else might invite an ad hominem argument, then if you defeat their stated argument, you’ll get nowhere. They’ll just come up with another one. Then another one, if that is defeated again. That’s hacking at leaves rather than striking at a root. Exposing the real reason might help with actually getting somewhere.
Then again, little is more annoying when someone, instead of engaging your argument, starts judging your psychological makeup...
So what’s optimal to do here? I’m not sure. Perhaps hacking off a few leaves first creates an opening for an attack at the root. At this point you’ve given the other person the courtesy of engaging their stated arguments for a while, and gathered some evidence in the process: “look, I defeated your last three arguments, and you ignore that and keep coming up with new ones, clearly we’re dancing around the real issue here”.
Ad hominem attacks do constitute some Bayesian evidence. However, human beings tend to dramatically and unconsciously overweight them (because our powers of reasoning are optimized for navigating social battles rather than seeking abstract truths), so the proper rationalist norm among humans should be to eschew them.
Good post.
I wonder if it’d be out of place for us on LW to start explicitely noticing these argument levels in disputes here. Though it’d probably be a better norm to use this positively (point out “good DH7 argument there”) rather than negatively, which… come to think of it, would just be something of a DH2 argument in itself, harmful ammo for the sophisticated arguer.
Do I understand right, that the difference between DH4 and 5 is that DH4 doesn’t directly engage the previous person’s argument? And if only DH6 is “refuting the central point”, then Dh5 means “nitpicking”? So it seems to me a solid DH4 could tower above DH5.
This is true but still, I’m inclined to think an ad hominem argument has some place in honest debate. If the real reason someone is advocating something is an unstated one, to do with their vested interests or psychological makeup or whatever else might invite an ad hominem argument, then if you defeat their stated argument, you’ll get nowhere. They’ll just come up with another one. Then another one, if that is defeated again. That’s hacking at leaves rather than striking at a root. Exposing the real reason might help with actually getting somewhere.
Then again, little is more annoying when someone, instead of engaging your argument, starts judging your psychological makeup...
So what’s optimal to do here? I’m not sure. Perhaps hacking off a few leaves first creates an opening for an attack at the root. At this point you’ve given the other person the courtesy of engaging their stated arguments for a while, and gathered some evidence in the process: “look, I defeated your last three arguments, and you ignore that and keep coming up with new ones, clearly we’re dancing around the real issue here”.
Ad hominem attacks do constitute some Bayesian evidence. However, human beings tend to dramatically and unconsciously overweight them (because our powers of reasoning are optimized for navigating social battles rather than seeking abstract truths), so the proper rationalist norm among humans should be to eschew them.
Indeed; this can probably be a stronger claim: Even when attempting to discount evidence like ad hominem, we will overweight them.