I’m having trouble evaluating your arguments because, as a woman with a fierce need for independence, who is really enjoying life in this day and age, I deeply disagree with your premise that less patriarchy is a Bad Thing.
Yet strangely, I have never heard of a romance novel in which the heroine has an egalitarian relationship with a nice guy who picks up her socks.
Roissy would of course dismiss your self report as a shit test and the rationalization hamster running, but then you would say that your observations are more reliable than my and Roissy’s observations, because you are female and can see the truth from inside, whereas I can only see it from outside.
Downloading a girly cartoon romance at random, labelled as a romance and intended for a female audience, and skimming it: Princess is much younger than the prince, and has been given to the prince to seal a peace treaty: The deal was that she was supposed to marry the King, but the King took one look at her and unilaterally changed the deal, giving her to the Prince instead. Prince treats her like the small brat that she in fact is. Prince is a leader of men, commander of the army, and has slaughtered various people in princess’ immediate family. The deal is that her land conditionally surrenders to the prince’s King as a result of military defeat, but the prince has to marry her so that her people get representation and her royal lineage does not totally disappear. Story is that, like the King, he does not want to marry her, because she is a small brat and much hotter chicks keep trying to get his attention, and she homicidally hates him because he has with his own sword killed one of her beloved relatives, and his army under his direct command has killed most of her other relatives (hence the marriage)
Skipping over a zillion frames of the prince in manly poses experiencing deep emotions, thinking about deep emotions, and talking about deep emotions, to the end, they start to like each other just in time for the scheduled wedding,. Final scene is that he goes off to war again and realizes he misses her. He wears the sword with which he killed her beloved relatives in every frame except for a frame when they go to bed, including the frame where he realizes he misses her.
Well I did not check every frame, but every frame that I checked he is wearing that sword, except when they were in bed. As far as I could tell in my somewhat superficial reading, he never regrets or apologizes for killing off much of her family, and treats her as an idiot for making a fuss about it until she stops making a fuss about it.
My account of the story is probably not completely accurate, (aagh, I am drowning in estrogen) but it is close enough. Prince, Princess, sword, arranged marriage, and sword.
So, I would say that the intended readers of that romance rather like patriarchy, and I would not believe anything they said to the contrary.
Yet strangely, I have never heard of a romance novel in which the heroine has an egalitarian relationship with a nice guy who picks up her socks.
I wouldn’t know. I don’t really read romance novels–I much prefer sci-fi and thrillers, of which there is more than enough to read. I’ve occasionally watched romantic comedy films–being dragged there by family members, usually–but a) I’ve never seen one that had a similar plot arch to what you describe, and b) I wouldn’t go voluntarily anyway.
So you may be right that the ‘intended audience’ of that novel likes patriarchy, but I am obviously not the intended audience and I have no idea who they are.
Yet strangely, I have never heard of a romance novel in which the heroine has an egalitarian relationship with a nice guy who picks up her socks.
a) I’ve never seen one that had a similar plot arch to what you describe,
Did it have an immortal vampire instead of a prince, a vampire who kills people by drinking them, instead of by chopping them up with a sword?
If so, I would say that would probably be seen by me, though not necessarily by you, as having a plot arch that was not merely similar, but for all practical purposes identical.
Much as all porns probably look indistinguishable to you, (naked girl moans a lot) all romances look identical to me.
All romances have a plot that corresponds to marriage as commanded by the New Testament, and endorsed by Church and state until the nineteenth century: Dangerous powerful high status male overwhelms weak frail low status female, but then falls gooey in love with her and only her.
And now we have a completely different system, and all the indications are that women do not like it, even though they said, and keep on saying, that the new system is what they want.
Did it have an immortal vampire instead of a prince, a vampire who kills people by drinking them, instead of by chopping them up with a sword?
I’ve read Twilight and ended up seeing the films with family members. I liked the action scenes. I think I miss a lot of the romantic cues–to me it’s just characters looking at each other–and I think I skipped those sections in the books.
Dangerous powerful high status male overwhelms weak frail low status female, but then falls gooey in love with her and only her.
Well, duh. Having high status people fall in love with you is an obvious sort of wish fulfillment plot. I expect that females in the past who chose, or just ended up with, low-status men with nice personalities got less resources for them and their children than women who were able to attract high-status men. Maybe having that instinct misfires now sometimes–there are plenty of men who are extremely nice and caring and make enough money at their low-status job to provide for a family. But I’m definitely not attracted to guys who come across as significantly lower status than me.
The confounding factor for me is that I’m non-neurotypical and I basically don’t experience physical attraction, definitely not at first glance–I can have a crush on people for their personality (or status) and I develop a solid bond of affection over time, and although I don’t generally like being touched, I can overcome this for specific people with enough repetition and conditioning. But relationships are time consuming, and guys tend to start whining about how I always prioritize other stuff (work, school, extracurriculars) over spending time with them, which drives me crazy because if I spend more time on those things, it’s because they are higher priorities for me. And I guess I’m physically attractive enough that I don’t have a ridiculously hard time finding guys who like me–in fact, I feel like it being too easy is a problem now and makes me less motivated to try to make my relationships work. So yeah...there’s a pretty high activation barrier for me to get into a relationship at all, and if the guy behaves in any way that sets off “low status behaviours” in my monkey brain (i.e. whining about how life is unfair to him, coming across as desperate, being unemployed, spending lots of time at unproductive activities like video games and generally seeming to have poor willpower, etc), it feels like I have no reason to push through the initially unpleasant-for-me phase of dating, because he wouldn’t be a good provider-for-children anyway.
Those are all reasons why I’m probably an outlier, as female go...although I think, when queried in imagine-if format, my brain still gives the usual answer to a lot of romance questions. (Would it be kind of cool to have an immortal vampire gooey in love with me? Well, yeah. But if he tried to nag me into being less of a workaholic or not biking alone in downtown late at night or stuff like that, it would still annoy me.)
Much as all porns probably look indistinguishable to you.
Probably–I’ve only seen 1 or 2 so I don’t actually know. I’m curious as to whether they seem varied to you.
Well, duh. Having high status people fall in love with you is an obvious sort of wish fulfillment plot.
Yet in films targeted largely at males, for example James Bond, the sex interest girls are generally low status. High status girls is not a major male wish fulfillment fantasy, whereas in romance, high status guys are as uniform as moaning in porn.. Even when the sex interest girl is a badass action girl with batman like athletic abilities, for example Yuffie the thief, she gets in trouble for stealing stuff, making her low status.
Further I doubt that there are what males would call action scenes in twilight because if there had been, males would have willingly watched it. What you are calling action scenes were probably status scenes involving violence and cruelty. I assume this because many, possibly most, romances have status scenes involving violence and cruelty. Love interest cruelty in romance is as predictable and repetitious as the girl moaning in porn. The point is not action, but to prove the love interest is potentially capable of cruelty and violence.
In an action scene, James Bond is in grave danger. In a romance cruelty scene, the love interest hurts someone really badly without the audience ever feeling the love interest to be in danger. The heroine is never in danger from the love interest, but the main point of the scene is that she could be. He is dangerous and badass. Hence the propensity of the prince to knock off relatives of the princess with that prominent and lovingly depicted sword.
In contrast, the main point of an action scene is that the hero is in danger. For example the henchman Jaws in “the spy who loved me” is way more badass than James Bond, so that the audience believes James Bond is in danger. No one is ever more badass than the romance love interest.
So yeah...there’s a pretty high activation barrier for me to get into a relationship at all
That is because all the available guys are roughly equal to you in status. So you don’t really want any of them. Not enough immortal vampires to go around. Hence Saint Paul’s policy that females should remain silent in church, wear a head covering, etc—harmless ways to make all females in church artificially lower status than all males in church, thus artificially making all males in church hot, thus making it possible to accomplish his directive: “let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.” without the woman having to wait until they run out of eggs in their thirties, thereby causing their status in the sexual market place to drop like a stone until, at last, due to their lowered sexual market place status, they finally find that males are hot enough that they want to put out the necessary effort.
In order to ban hypergamy, Paul had to make females not want hypergamy.
Like Groucho Marx, you will only find them interesting when they start losing interest—hence the extremely low reproduction rate and high fertility clinic attendance rate of intelligent well educated women.
Observe the reasonably high rates of marriage near the age of maximum fertility among Mormons, Palestinians, and Amish.
That is because all the available guys are roughly equal to you in status. So you don’t really want any of them. Not enough immortal vampires to go around.
Well, maybe. But I think one of the serious confounding factors is that I don’t actually like sex and all the associated relationship crap. My friend, who does, has been in lots of relationships with guys who seemed low status to me (and yes, I had specifically that thought...most of them so far still live with their moms.) Granted, she’s a single mom who hasn’t finished her high school, and doesn’t give off the impression of intelligence when she speaks (apparently I do)–so perhaps her status is closer to theirs, and maybe she feels that it’s lower. So it’s possible for her to have a relationship where she doesn’t get along great with the guy, and sometimes doesn’t even like his personality that much, but the sex is awesome and that balances it out. Wouldn’t happen with me. The sex is something I put up with in order to make this weird alien beast happy, so that I can have the other parts of the relationship–I kind of like the whole living together, cooking together, “playing house” thing. And I want kids, and don’t want to be a single mom. Honestly, that’s probably the main reason I make any effort–I don’t get lonely per se being single. (Are you implying that my feelings will change and I suddenly will start to get massively lonely once I perceive that my status has dropped and I’m no longer desirable to males?)
I’m trying to think of times that I did perceive myself as lower status, i.e. high school. Hard to know if I remember correctly, but I had crushes on guys and a few girls. Same as now. If I fantasized at all, my fantasies didn’t include kissing or touching–should have been a clue-in, although at that point I was still expecting to be “normal” with respect to those things. I remember dating a guy at the end of high school who, physically, was considered much more relatively attractive than me, enough that people made comments about it to my friends–but I think he considered me similar or even higher status–I was much more independent, living on my own while he lived with his mom, working and paying my own tuition and rent, getting 90s in first-year university while he failed a couple of his first exams. And he was very aware of that and made comments about it. (In hindsight, that may have been a problem in that relationship, and may have contributed to why we broke up. Maybe I should have learned to play lower status in the sense of “act less smart”? Is that what most girls do?)
The sex is something I put up with in order to make this weird alien beast happy, so that I can have the other parts of the relationship–I kind of like the whole living together, cooking together, “playing house” thing. And I want kids, and don’t want to be a single mom.
You could date ace people and not have to make this tradeoff.
Yet in films targeted largely at males, for example James Bond, the sex interest girls are generally low status.
What? That doesn’t seem true. Many of them are his near equals (but evil or at least rivals). Many are colleagues that are fairly high status. I mean, probably somewhat lower status than Bond. But he’s freaking James Bond. He’s the highest status person there is (in his universe). High standard to meet!
That doesn’t seem true. Many of them are his near equals (but evil or at least rivals).
Then why are they completely replaced from one film to the next? Whereas there are recurring male characters (and recurring female characters that Bond doesn’t sleep with).
I mean, probably somewhat lower status than Bond. But he’s freaking James Bond. He’s the highest status person there is (in his universe). High standard to meet!
Then why are they completely replaced from one film to the next?
Because people like to see romance (or, at least, sexual trysts) bloom. Stable ongoing relationships are sweet and all but just aren’t what we like to see. See what happens when any male and female leads on TV series get together...
I believe that’s Sam’s point.
That doesn’t seem right. Firstly because it isn’t what he said and secondly because assuming that was his point would hardly be generous to Sam… because it is a terrible (near irrelevant) point.
Ahahahaha! The fanatical, diehard, anti-modern anti-liberal guy… has played Final Fantasy 7 and was enough of a nerd to get the secret character! HahahahahaHA! Sorry, I just find this kinda hilarious for several reasons.
All romances have a plot that corresponds to marriage as commanded by the New Testament, and endorsed by Church and state until the nineteenth century: Dangerous powerful high status male overwhelms weak frail low status female, but then falls gooey in love with her and only her.
This is not quite the version endorsed by Church and state until the nineteenth century unless you replace “Dangerous powerful high status male” with “Dangerous but chivalrous powerful high status male”.
Yet strangely, I have never heard of a romance novel in which the heroine has an egalitarian relationship with a nice guy who picks up her socks.
Roissy would of course dismiss your self report as a shit test and the rationalization hamster running, but then you would say that your observations are more reliable than my and Roissy’s observations, because you are female and can see the truth from inside, whereas I can only see it from outside.
Downloading a girly cartoon romance at random, labelled as a romance and intended for a female audience, and skimming it: Princess is much younger than the prince, and has been given to the prince to seal a peace treaty: The deal was that she was supposed to marry the King, but the King took one look at her and unilaterally changed the deal, giving her to the Prince instead. Prince treats her like the small brat that she in fact is. Prince is a leader of men, commander of the army, and has slaughtered various people in princess’ immediate family. The deal is that her land conditionally surrenders to the prince’s King as a result of military defeat, but the prince has to marry her so that her people get representation and her royal lineage does not totally disappear. Story is that, like the King, he does not want to marry her, because she is a small brat and much hotter chicks keep trying to get his attention, and she homicidally hates him because he has with his own sword killed one of her beloved relatives, and his army under his direct command has killed most of her other relatives (hence the marriage)
Skipping over a zillion frames of the prince in manly poses experiencing deep emotions, thinking about deep emotions, and talking about deep emotions, to the end, they start to like each other just in time for the scheduled wedding,. Final scene is that he goes off to war again and realizes he misses her. He wears the sword with which he killed her beloved relatives in every frame except for a frame when they go to bed, including the frame where he realizes he misses her.
Well I did not check every frame, but every frame that I checked he is wearing that sword, except when they were in bed. As far as I could tell in my somewhat superficial reading, he never regrets or apologizes for killing off much of her family, and treats her as an idiot for making a fuss about it until she stops making a fuss about it.
My account of the story is probably not completely accurate, (aagh, I am drowning in estrogen) but it is close enough. Prince, Princess, sword, arranged marriage, and sword.
So, I would say that the intended readers of that romance rather like patriarchy, and I would not believe anything they said to the contrary.
I wouldn’t know. I don’t really read romance novels–I much prefer sci-fi and thrillers, of which there is more than enough to read. I’ve occasionally watched romantic comedy films–being dragged there by family members, usually–but a) I’ve never seen one that had a similar plot arch to what you describe, and b) I wouldn’t go voluntarily anyway.
So you may be right that the ‘intended audience’ of that novel likes patriarchy, but I am obviously not the intended audience and I have no idea who they are.
Did it have an immortal vampire instead of a prince, a vampire who kills people by drinking them, instead of by chopping them up with a sword?
If so, I would say that would probably be seen by me, though not necessarily by you, as having a plot arch that was not merely similar, but for all practical purposes identical.
Much as all porns probably look indistinguishable to you, (naked girl moans a lot) all romances look identical to me.
All romances have a plot that corresponds to marriage as commanded by the New Testament, and endorsed by Church and state until the nineteenth century: Dangerous powerful high status male overwhelms weak frail low status female, but then falls gooey in love with her and only her.
And now we have a completely different system, and all the indications are that women do not like it, even though they said, and keep on saying, that the new system is what they want.
I’ve read Twilight and ended up seeing the films with family members. I liked the action scenes. I think I miss a lot of the romantic cues–to me it’s just characters looking at each other–and I think I skipped those sections in the books.
Well, duh. Having high status people fall in love with you is an obvious sort of wish fulfillment plot. I expect that females in the past who chose, or just ended up with, low-status men with nice personalities got less resources for them and their children than women who were able to attract high-status men. Maybe having that instinct misfires now sometimes–there are plenty of men who are extremely nice and caring and make enough money at their low-status job to provide for a family. But I’m definitely not attracted to guys who come across as significantly lower status than me.
The confounding factor for me is that I’m non-neurotypical and I basically don’t experience physical attraction, definitely not at first glance–I can have a crush on people for their personality (or status) and I develop a solid bond of affection over time, and although I don’t generally like being touched, I can overcome this for specific people with enough repetition and conditioning. But relationships are time consuming, and guys tend to start whining about how I always prioritize other stuff (work, school, extracurriculars) over spending time with them, which drives me crazy because if I spend more time on those things, it’s because they are higher priorities for me. And I guess I’m physically attractive enough that I don’t have a ridiculously hard time finding guys who like me–in fact, I feel like it being too easy is a problem now and makes me less motivated to try to make my relationships work. So yeah...there’s a pretty high activation barrier for me to get into a relationship at all, and if the guy behaves in any way that sets off “low status behaviours” in my monkey brain (i.e. whining about how life is unfair to him, coming across as desperate, being unemployed, spending lots of time at unproductive activities like video games and generally seeming to have poor willpower, etc), it feels like I have no reason to push through the initially unpleasant-for-me phase of dating, because he wouldn’t be a good provider-for-children anyway.
Those are all reasons why I’m probably an outlier, as female go...although I think, when queried in imagine-if format, my brain still gives the usual answer to a lot of romance questions. (Would it be kind of cool to have an immortal vampire gooey in love with me? Well, yeah. But if he tried to nag me into being less of a workaholic or not biking alone in downtown late at night or stuff like that, it would still annoy me.)
Probably–I’ve only seen 1 or 2 so I don’t actually know. I’m curious as to whether they seem varied to you.
Yet in films targeted largely at males, for example James Bond, the sex interest girls are generally low status. High status girls is not a major male wish fulfillment fantasy, whereas in romance, high status guys are as uniform as moaning in porn.. Even when the sex interest girl is a badass action girl with batman like athletic abilities, for example Yuffie the thief, she gets in trouble for stealing stuff, making her low status.
Further I doubt that there are what males would call action scenes in twilight because if there had been, males would have willingly watched it. What you are calling action scenes were probably status scenes involving violence and cruelty. I assume this because many, possibly most, romances have status scenes involving violence and cruelty. Love interest cruelty in romance is as predictable and repetitious as the girl moaning in porn. The point is not action, but to prove the love interest is potentially capable of cruelty and violence.
In an action scene, James Bond is in grave danger. In a romance cruelty scene, the love interest hurts someone really badly without the audience ever feeling the love interest to be in danger. The heroine is never in danger from the love interest, but the main point of the scene is that she could be. He is dangerous and badass. Hence the propensity of the prince to knock off relatives of the princess with that prominent and lovingly depicted sword.
In contrast, the main point of an action scene is that the hero is in danger. For example the henchman Jaws in “the spy who loved me” is way more badass than James Bond, so that the audience believes James Bond is in danger. No one is ever more badass than the romance love interest.
That is because all the available guys are roughly equal to you in status. So you don’t really want any of them. Not enough immortal vampires to go around. Hence Saint Paul’s policy that females should remain silent in church, wear a head covering, etc—harmless ways to make all females in church artificially lower status than all males in church, thus artificially making all males in church hot, thus making it possible to accomplish his directive: “let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.” without the woman having to wait until they run out of eggs in their thirties, thereby causing their status in the sexual market place to drop like a stone until, at last, due to their lowered sexual market place status, they finally find that males are hot enough that they want to put out the necessary effort.
In order to ban hypergamy, Paul had to make females not want hypergamy.
Like Groucho Marx, you will only find them interesting when they start losing interest—hence the extremely low reproduction rate and high fertility clinic attendance rate of intelligent well educated women.
Observe the reasonably high rates of marriage near the age of maximum fertility among Mormons, Palestinians, and Amish.
Well, maybe. But I think one of the serious confounding factors is that I don’t actually like sex and all the associated relationship crap. My friend, who does, has been in lots of relationships with guys who seemed low status to me (and yes, I had specifically that thought...most of them so far still live with their moms.) Granted, she’s a single mom who hasn’t finished her high school, and doesn’t give off the impression of intelligence when she speaks (apparently I do)–so perhaps her status is closer to theirs, and maybe she feels that it’s lower. So it’s possible for her to have a relationship where she doesn’t get along great with the guy, and sometimes doesn’t even like his personality that much, but the sex is awesome and that balances it out. Wouldn’t happen with me. The sex is something I put up with in order to make this weird alien beast happy, so that I can have the other parts of the relationship–I kind of like the whole living together, cooking together, “playing house” thing. And I want kids, and don’t want to be a single mom. Honestly, that’s probably the main reason I make any effort–I don’t get lonely per se being single. (Are you implying that my feelings will change and I suddenly will start to get massively lonely once I perceive that my status has dropped and I’m no longer desirable to males?)
I’m trying to think of times that I did perceive myself as lower status, i.e. high school. Hard to know if I remember correctly, but I had crushes on guys and a few girls. Same as now. If I fantasized at all, my fantasies didn’t include kissing or touching–should have been a clue-in, although at that point I was still expecting to be “normal” with respect to those things. I remember dating a guy at the end of high school who, physically, was considered much more relatively attractive than me, enough that people made comments about it to my friends–but I think he considered me similar or even higher status–I was much more independent, living on my own while he lived with his mom, working and paying my own tuition and rent, getting 90s in first-year university while he failed a couple of his first exams. And he was very aware of that and made comments about it. (In hindsight, that may have been a problem in that relationship, and may have contributed to why we broke up. Maybe I should have learned to play lower status in the sense of “act less smart”? Is that what most girls do?)
You could date ace people and not have to make this tradeoff.
I could–now how do I meet ace people?
I believe they have websites, meetup groups, &c. Not all of them will be there, but some will.
What? That doesn’t seem true. Many of them are his near equals (but evil or at least rivals). Many are colleagues that are fairly high status. I mean, probably somewhat lower status than Bond. But he’s freaking James Bond. He’s the highest status person there is (in his universe). High standard to meet!
Then why are they completely replaced from one film to the next? Whereas there are recurring male characters (and recurring female characters that Bond doesn’t sleep with).
I believe that’s Sam’s point.
Because people like to see romance (or, at least, sexual trysts) bloom. Stable ongoing relationships are sweet and all but just aren’t what we like to see. See what happens when any male and female leads on TV series get together...
That doesn’t seem right. Firstly because it isn’t what he said and secondly because assuming that was his point would hardly be generous to Sam… because it is a terrible (near irrelevant) point.
Ahahahaha! The fanatical, diehard, anti-modern anti-liberal guy… has played Final Fantasy 7 and was enough of a nerd to get the secret character! HahahahahaHA! Sorry, I just find this kinda hilarious for several reasons.
This is not quite the version endorsed by Church and state until the nineteenth century unless you replace “Dangerous powerful high status male” with “Dangerous but chivalrous powerful high status male”.