I see no possible explanation of human book-reading except as a super-stimulus for some ancestral urges (whether status-related or not)
There’s nothing “super” about a book: no corresponding “normal” stimulus that elicits a natural response, such that a book is an exaggerated version of it.
Book-reading is explained straightforwardly enough as satisfying curiosity, a trait we share with many species (think cats).
If reading a book sometimes trumps the quest for status, then the latter cannot be THE primary preoccupation of people beyond bare physical subsistence. You will at least need to retreat to “an important” preoccupation.
Now, if you were to explore this topic without jumping to conclusions, perhaps you’d recognize this one example as the start of a list, and would in an unbiased manner draw up a somewhat realistic list of the activities typical humans engage in, and sort them into “activities having a high status component” and “activities not primarily status-related”. Then we might form a better picture of “how important”.
There’s nothing “super” about a book: no corresponding “normal” stimulus that elicits a natural response, such that a book is an exaggerated version of it.
I disagree, for the reasons I’ve already discussed at length. You don’t seem to have read my above comment carefully, or perhaps my exposition was poor.
I did mention curiosity as one part of the motivation for reading books. Moreover, the curiosity explanation itself contradicts your above claim: a book, or a story told any other way, presents far more material (albeit fictional) for curiosity-satisfaction than is available from real-life events, and this material is intentionally and skillfully crafted to have great appeal in this regard, so it clearly does provide a super-stimulus for this particular urge.
Besides, as I also mentioned in my above post, there is also the human urge for gossip, which is pretty obviously related to status games, and is clearly super-stimulated by (at least some) books and other story-telling media. Finally, there is also the motivation of status seeking via demonstrating taste and erudition. All these, and possibly many other factors would probably feature in a complete theory of this particular human behavior.
If reading a book sometimes trumps the quest for status, then the latter cannot be THE primary preoccupation of people beyond bare physical subsistence. You will at least need to retreat to “an important” preoccupation
Again, you don’t seem to understand my point about the difference between: (1) human behaviors that actually enhance status, or promote goals that lead towards its enhancement, and (2) behaviors driven by urges that had originally evolved for status-seeking purposes in the ancestral environment, but which misfire in the modern environment—just like e.g. the human taste for sugar was a good nutritional heuristic in a sugar-poor environment, but leads us to bad nutritional choices in the present environment full of cheap sugar-rich super-stimuli.
Now, if you were to explore this topic without jumping to conclusions, perhaps you’d recognize this one example as the start of a list, and would in an unbiased manner draw up a somewhat realistic list of the activities typical humans engage in, and sort them into “activities having a high status component” and “activities not primarily status-related”. Then we might form a better picture of “how important”.
But as I explained above, you don’t seem to have understood my remarks about this example correctly. (I allow for the possibility that my writing was too bad to be understandable, of course.) I’ve explained the issue again now, and my conclusion is still that your example is incorrect. If you believe that my reasoning in this case is invalid, or if you have other examples that you believe refute my main thesis, I’d love to hear your arguments, but please make sure to address the substance of what I’ve written.
a book, or a story told any other way, presents far more material (albeit fictional) for curiosity-satisfaction than is available from real-life events, and this material is intentionally and skillfully crafted to have great appeal in this regard
I read mostly non-fiction books, mostly to satisfy my curiosity. A recent example was “Freakonomics”. That appears to defuse your argument...
so it clearly does provide a super-stimulus for this particular urge
I dispute that a book is a “superstimulus” in the same sense in which that term has predictive power when applied to herring gull parents, to the sexual arousal response in humans, or to the appeal of fast-food flavors. I am unwilling, more generally, to interpret the term “super-stimulus” broadly enough to encompass any case where a given behaviour is explained by an urge vaguely related to another urge that existed in the ancestral environment.
If books in general were superstimuli for some existing urge, then any book would elicit the hijacked response to that urge (and we would be able to make a book irresistible by exaggerating the relevant cues). Instead, I find myself discriminating quite sharply between “interesting” books and “boring” books. (For instance I can’t stand the sight of most “trade” books that are supposed to appeal to programmers, like “Functional Programming in a Nutshell”.)
if you have other examples that you believe refute my main thesis
Why do people knit? I’d say that the urges involved are mostly competence and caring, rather than status. Why do I learn how to solder, and take apart consumer electronics? Curiosity, not status.
The common theme is that caring, competence and curiosity did plausibly exist in the ancestral environment, so it isn’t necessary to invoke status when there is a clearer link to other drives. I’m OK with having status (properly understood) take its rightful place in a pantheon of inherited drives, but it drives me nuts to see it trotted out to explain everything.
For some reason, we seem to be talking past each other—you appear to be replying to an incomplete and exaggerated version of what I had in mind. I accept the possibility that this is because I expressed my ideas in a confusing and poorly worded manner, but whatever the reason, we seem to be stuck at this point.
Therefore, regarding the book-reading issue, I will try to restate a few key elements of my position briefly:
It was not my intention to set forth a complete theory of human motives for reading books, but merely to bring up several examples of motives that are, in my opinion, likely involved (sometimes exclusively) in a significant percentage of all instances of book-reading behaviors.
I did not claim, and it would indeed be absurd to claim, that all these motives, or even any particular one of them, play a role in every instance of book-reading behavior.
Neither did I claim, which would also be absurd, that these motives and their biological causes are present to the same extent across any given set of individuals. Consequently, neither do the reactions to any particular book necessarily have the same underlying motivation across any given set of individuals, even if they all happen to be positive (or in other respects behaviorally similar) for all members of that set.
Ultimately, the goal of discussing these examples was to demonstrate the difference between: (1) effective status-seeking behaviors, and (2) behaviors that just execute adaptations that originally evolved due to status-related reasons, but no longer serve status goals effectively in the modern environment. In particular, some instances of human book-reading behavior fall into one or both of these categories (which does not imply that even these particular instances don’t involve other, unrelated motivations too).
Maybe not only my writing, but also my reading comprehension has been poor, but in your replies, I honestly don’t see any objections that wouldn’t either implicitly agree with what I said or rest on the misunderstanding of some of the above points.
The common theme is that caring, competence and curiosity did plausibly exist in the ancestral environment, so it isn’t necessary to invoke status when there is a clearer link to other drives. I’m OK with having status (properly understood) take its rightful place in a pantheon of inherited drives, but it drives me nuts to see it trotted out to explain everything.
And this doesn’t contradict anything I had in mind, nor anything I’ve written, unless my writing has been really poor (which possibility I allow for).
That said, when it comes to human behaviors where much is at stake in terms of power, prestige, and wealth, I believe it’s hard to think of any in which status considerations don’t play a significant role. In particular, when it comest to the issue that started this discussion, I have yet to see anyone elaborate on any plausible-sounding explanation that wouldn’t revolve around status dynamics.
I accept the possibility that this is because I expressed my ideas in a confusing and poorly worded manner
Well: long-winded, maybe. Fine otherwise; I’d mention it less.
You wrote that beyond life or death “status is the primary preoccupation of humans”, I disagreed and in particular with “THE primary preoccupation”. You seem to now have appropriately qualified that initial statement; I’ll certainly agree, for my part, that some people sometimes read books for bragging rights.
I definitely agree that various forms of “status” play significant roles in human motivation. Given that all of our behaviour rests in one way or another in executing biological adaptations I have no contention with your thesis. I strongly suspect that what we call “status” is not one mechanism but several, so that in each case it pays to hug the query.
There’s nothing “super” about a book: no corresponding “normal” stimulus that elicits a natural response, such that a book is an exaggerated version of it.
Book-reading is explained straightforwardly enough as satisfying curiosity, a trait we share with many species (think cats).
If reading a book sometimes trumps the quest for status, then the latter cannot be THE primary preoccupation of people beyond bare physical subsistence. You will at least need to retreat to “an important” preoccupation.
Now, if you were to explore this topic without jumping to conclusions, perhaps you’d recognize this one example as the start of a list, and would in an unbiased manner draw up a somewhat realistic list of the activities typical humans engage in, and sort them into “activities having a high status component” and “activities not primarily status-related”. Then we might form a better picture of “how important”.
Morendil:
I disagree, for the reasons I’ve already discussed at length. You don’t seem to have read my above comment carefully, or perhaps my exposition was poor.
I did mention curiosity as one part of the motivation for reading books. Moreover, the curiosity explanation itself contradicts your above claim: a book, or a story told any other way, presents far more material (albeit fictional) for curiosity-satisfaction than is available from real-life events, and this material is intentionally and skillfully crafted to have great appeal in this regard, so it clearly does provide a super-stimulus for this particular urge.
Besides, as I also mentioned in my above post, there is also the human urge for gossip, which is pretty obviously related to status games, and is clearly super-stimulated by (at least some) books and other story-telling media. Finally, there is also the motivation of status seeking via demonstrating taste and erudition. All these, and possibly many other factors would probably feature in a complete theory of this particular human behavior.
Again, you don’t seem to understand my point about the difference between: (1) human behaviors that actually enhance status, or promote goals that lead towards its enhancement, and (2) behaviors driven by urges that had originally evolved for status-seeking purposes in the ancestral environment, but which misfire in the modern environment—just like e.g. the human taste for sugar was a good nutritional heuristic in a sugar-poor environment, but leads us to bad nutritional choices in the present environment full of cheap sugar-rich super-stimuli.
But as I explained above, you don’t seem to have understood my remarks about this example correctly. (I allow for the possibility that my writing was too bad to be understandable, of course.) I’ve explained the issue again now, and my conclusion is still that your example is incorrect. If you believe that my reasoning in this case is invalid, or if you have other examples that you believe refute my main thesis, I’d love to hear your arguments, but please make sure to address the substance of what I’ve written.
I read mostly non-fiction books, mostly to satisfy my curiosity. A recent example was “Freakonomics”. That appears to defuse your argument...
I dispute that a book is a “superstimulus” in the same sense in which that term has predictive power when applied to herring gull parents, to the sexual arousal response in humans, or to the appeal of fast-food flavors. I am unwilling, more generally, to interpret the term “super-stimulus” broadly enough to encompass any case where a given behaviour is explained by an urge vaguely related to another urge that existed in the ancestral environment.
If books in general were superstimuli for some existing urge, then any book would elicit the hijacked response to that urge (and we would be able to make a book irresistible by exaggerating the relevant cues). Instead, I find myself discriminating quite sharply between “interesting” books and “boring” books. (For instance I can’t stand the sight of most “trade” books that are supposed to appeal to programmers, like “Functional Programming in a Nutshell”.)
Why do people knit? I’d say that the urges involved are mostly competence and caring, rather than status. Why do I learn how to solder, and take apart consumer electronics? Curiosity, not status.
The common theme is that caring, competence and curiosity did plausibly exist in the ancestral environment, so it isn’t necessary to invoke status when there is a clearer link to other drives. I’m OK with having status (properly understood) take its rightful place in a pantheon of inherited drives, but it drives me nuts to see it trotted out to explain everything.
For some reason, we seem to be talking past each other—you appear to be replying to an incomplete and exaggerated version of what I had in mind. I accept the possibility that this is because I expressed my ideas in a confusing and poorly worded manner, but whatever the reason, we seem to be stuck at this point.
Therefore, regarding the book-reading issue, I will try to restate a few key elements of my position briefly:
It was not my intention to set forth a complete theory of human motives for reading books, but merely to bring up several examples of motives that are, in my opinion, likely involved (sometimes exclusively) in a significant percentage of all instances of book-reading behaviors.
I did not claim, and it would indeed be absurd to claim, that all these motives, or even any particular one of them, play a role in every instance of book-reading behavior.
Neither did I claim, which would also be absurd, that these motives and their biological causes are present to the same extent across any given set of individuals. Consequently, neither do the reactions to any particular book necessarily have the same underlying motivation across any given set of individuals, even if they all happen to be positive (or in other respects behaviorally similar) for all members of that set.
Ultimately, the goal of discussing these examples was to demonstrate the difference between: (1) effective status-seeking behaviors, and (2) behaviors that just execute adaptations that originally evolved due to status-related reasons, but no longer serve status goals effectively in the modern environment. In particular, some instances of human book-reading behavior fall into one or both of these categories (which does not imply that even these particular instances don’t involve other, unrelated motivations too).
Maybe not only my writing, but also my reading comprehension has been poor, but in your replies, I honestly don’t see any objections that wouldn’t either implicitly agree with what I said or rest on the misunderstanding of some of the above points.
And this doesn’t contradict anything I had in mind, nor anything I’ve written, unless my writing has been really poor (which possibility I allow for).
That said, when it comes to human behaviors where much is at stake in terms of power, prestige, and wealth, I believe it’s hard to think of any in which status considerations don’t play a significant role. In particular, when it comest to the issue that started this discussion, I have yet to see anyone elaborate on any plausible-sounding explanation that wouldn’t revolve around status dynamics.
Well: long-winded, maybe. Fine otherwise; I’d mention it less.
You wrote that beyond life or death “status is the primary preoccupation of humans”, I disagreed and in particular with “THE primary preoccupation”. You seem to now have appropriately qualified that initial statement; I’ll certainly agree, for my part, that some people sometimes read books for bragging rights.
I definitely agree that various forms of “status” play significant roles in human motivation. Given that all of our behaviour rests in one way or another in executing biological adaptations I have no contention with your thesis. I strongly suspect that what we call “status” is not one mechanism but several, so that in each case it pays to hug the query.