It could be that people count different things as sex. Intercourse always counts, but any other act that can cause orgasm (and quite a few that can’t) are counted as sex by some people and not by some others. Can’t see why men would have a wider view of what counts than women, though; I’d expect the reverse.
Isn’t the usual explanation that “having had a lot of partners” is seen as a positive trait for a man, but a negative one for a woman? (or at least, it’s a more desirable/less undesirable trait for a male).
Yeah, but you don’t need to postulate different definitions of sex then; they’re fudging the numbers, and nothing tells you whether they use this parameter to do it. I was proposing a model where people are completely honest and still give different answers.
I read in Cosmo (probably the least reliable source possible) that women often don’t count one-night-stands. No idea how to test.
Different definitions of sex sound like a plausible way of fudging the numbers (I don’t see any other ways of fudging the numbers that aren’t outright lying), and fudging the numbers seems like a good motivation to have different definitions of sex.
The lie detector in the OP makes outright lying seem a bit more plausible though, if it’s true.
Obviously that’s the main implication, and it’s very likely a significant cause of the difference. It’s not necessarily the only one—and if we’re trying to measure that difference, we’ll need to take into account the other causes of differences.
Can’t see why men would have a wider view of what counts than women, though; I’d expect the reverse.
In a How I Met Your Mother episode, Znefunyy pbhagrq jung Yvyl qvq jvgu ure rk-oblsevraq nf frk naq Yvyl qvqa’g. (Znefunyy punatrq uvf zvaq ol gur raq bs gur rcvfbqr.)
I am totally willing to believe that men and women count different things as sex, but they could both be using the same standard—“times a partner makes me orgasm”—and it could still result in a greater mean number of acts for men than for women even in a fixed heterosexual population (unfortunately)… granted I have no idea if people do this.
Wait… People count that as sex? I knew phrases like “cyber sex”, “phone sex”, etc., but I thought people thought of them as cases where [adjective][noun]s are not actually [noun]s, as with “dwarf planet”, “fake money”, “soy meat”, etc., and I’m surprised if there are people who would count that as sex when asked how many people they’ve had sex with (except possibly as self-sophistry in attempt to fool the lie detector).
Lotsofpeoplecount “helping a partner come by using words” (typically by one or both partners masturbating at the same time) as sex; it actually seems to be the default position among sex bloggers. That sounds solid to me; if Alice is doing something to pleasure Bob, it doesn’t particularly matter how indirectly.
Fewer people (in the list above, Cliff Pervocracy and Greta Christina) count as sex the dirty talk alone, without the possibility of orgasm. I can’t think of a situation where that would feel like sex to me, but it appears to work for them.
Naive attempts to dissolve the question of “what is sex?” tend to fail because of the assumption that describing the acts is enough, when the psychology is a large part of what the question is getting at. For example, I think that two people masturbating to each other’s sight is more like two people masturbating each other than it is like a circle jerk.
self-sophistry in attempt to fool the lie detector
Ontopic: most people count it as cheating, IIRC, but then some people count almost anything as cheating.
Offtopic: does anyone know if that actually works? I know I’m generally aware of when I’m deliberately manipulating the truth; indeed, it’s actually easier (in my experience and according to conversations with a friend) to loose track of when you’re telling them something you actually made up, as if it were the truth (I assume this would help with most forms of lie-detection.) OTOH, I know nothing about lie detection of any kind.
Ontopic: most people count it as cheating, IIRC, but then some people count almost anything as cheating.
You mean “most people count [dirty talk] as cheating [when you’re in a relationship with someone else]”? Or “most people count [self-sophistry in attempt to fool lie detectors] as cheating [when taking surveys]”? If the former, yes, but then most people would count French kissing as cheating, too, whereas virtually no-one would count is as sex. If the latter… I don’t think such people give a damn whether they are cheating, or if they did they’d also answer honestly when there’s no fake lie detector.
Offtopic: does anyone know if that actually works?
AFAIK lie detectors measure the effect of emotional responses (heart rate, sweating, etc.), so to a zeroth approximation you’ll get caught iff you alieve you’ll get caught. So, it’d depend on how the respondents alieve lie detectors work.
IME (though these anecdotes date back to my childhood, so my recollection may be unreliable), when Muggle adults see a toy that purports to be a lie detector (e.g. an analog thermometer like a mood ring), they start to say statements whose truth value they couldn’t possibly know themselves (e.g. “Juventus will defeat Manchester Utd tomorrow night”) and purport that they will bet based on the outcome. Which means that either 1) they are idiots, or 2) they realize that the widget cannot possibly detect lies, and sarcastically reduce the claim ad absurdum. If it’s 1), such people may think that lie detectors somehow respond to the actual words you say rather than your state of mind, and so that they wouldn’t detect a statement that is denotationally true but connotationally false.
loose track of when you’re telling them something you actually made up
You mean “lose track of what the truth is”, or “lose track of what you told them”? I’d guess the former (or that there’s a missing “than” somewhere); the latter would contradict my experience, but then AFAIK I’m worse at (and reluctant to) lying than most other people.
You mean “most people count [dirty talk] as cheating [when you’re in a relationship with someone else]”?
Whoops! Overlooked the double meaning of “cheating”. I meant it regarding the sex stuff, not the lie stuff.
AFAIK lie detectors measure the effect of emotional responses (heart rate, sweating, etc.), so to a zeroth approximation you’ll get caught iff you alieve you’ll get caught. So, it’d depend on how the respondents alieve lie detectors work.
Not that’s an idea I hadn’t heard before. I’ve always seen it framed as “people are nervous when they lie.”
IME (though these anecdotes date back to my childhood, so my recollection may be unreliable), when Muggle adults see a toy that purports to be a lie detector (e.g. an analog thermometer like a mood ring), they start to say statements whose truth value they couldn’t possibly know themselves (e.g. “Juventus will defeat Manchester Utd tomorrow night”) and purport that they will bet based on the outcome. Which means that either 1) they are idiots, or 2) they realize that the widget cannot possibly detect lies, and sarcastically reduce the claim ad absurdum. If it’s 1), such people may think that lie detectors somehow respond to the actual words you say rather than your state of mind, and so that they wouldn’t detect a statement that is denotationally true but connotationally false.
I’m pretty sure I’ve made that same joke, as essentially a pun on the two meanings of “truth”. Still …
It could be that people count different things as sex. Intercourse always counts, but any other act that can cause orgasm (and quite a few that can’t) are counted as sex by some people and not by some others. Can’t see why men would have a wider view of what counts than women, though; I’d expect the reverse.
Isn’t the usual explanation that “having had a lot of partners” is seen as a positive trait for a man, but a negative one for a woman? (or at least, it’s a more desirable/less undesirable trait for a male).
Yeah, but you don’t need to postulate different definitions of sex then; they’re fudging the numbers, and nothing tells you whether they use this parameter to do it. I was proposing a model where people are completely honest and still give different answers.
I read in Cosmo (probably the least reliable source possible) that women often don’t count one-night-stands. No idea how to test.
Testing is pretty easy. You split your group into two.
One group get’s asked: How many sexual partners did you have in your life?
The other group get’s asked: “How many sexual partners did you have in your life, if you don’t count one-night-stands?”
Three. Third group gets “counting one-night-stands”.
Different definitions of sex sound like a plausible way of fudging the numbers (I don’t see any other ways of fudging the numbers that aren’t outright lying), and fudging the numbers seems like a good motivation to have different definitions of sex.
The lie detector in the OP makes outright lying seem a bit more plausible though, if it’s true.
Obviously that’s the main implication, and it’s very likely a significant cause of the difference. It’s not necessarily the only one—and if we’re trying to measure that difference, we’ll need to take into account the other causes of differences.
In a How I Met Your Mother episode, Znefunyy pbhagrq jung Yvyl qvq jvgu ure rk-oblsevraq nf frk naq Yvyl qvqa’g. (Znefunyy punatrq uvf zvaq ol gur raq bs gur rcvfbqr.)
(Yeah, fictional evidence, I know...)
I am totally willing to believe that men and women count different things as sex, but they could both be using the same standard—“times a partner makes me orgasm”—and it could still result in a greater mean number of acts for men than for women even in a fixed heterosexual population (unfortunately)… granted I have no idea if people do this.
Society sees a man who has sex with a lot of women as being good with woman. Society sees a woman who has sex with a lot of men as being a slut.
A woman doesn’t want to see herself as a slut and might therefore use a more conservative way of counting.
Like what?
Nearly every kind of BDSM play under the sun, and talking dirty. Most people can’t orgasm from those alone.
Wait… People count that as sex? I knew phrases like “cyber sex”, “phone sex”, etc., but I thought people thought of them as cases where [adjective] [noun]s are not actually [noun]s, as with “dwarf planet”, “fake money”, “soy meat”, etc., and I’m surprised if there are people who would count that as sex when asked how many people they’ve had sex with (except possibly as self-sophistry in attempt to fool the lie detector).
Lots of people count “helping a partner come by using words” (typically by one or both partners masturbating at the same time) as sex; it actually seems to be the default position among sex bloggers. That sounds solid to me; if Alice is doing something to pleasure Bob, it doesn’t particularly matter how indirectly.
Fewer people (in the list above, Cliff Pervocracy and Greta Christina) count as sex the dirty talk alone, without the possibility of orgasm. I can’t think of a situation where that would feel like sex to me, but it appears to work for them.
Naive attempts to dissolve the question of “what is sex?” tend to fail because of the assumption that describing the acts is enough, when the psychology is a large part of what the question is getting at. For example, I think that two people masturbating to each other’s sight is more like two people masturbating each other than it is like a circle jerk.
Ontopic: most people count it as cheating, IIRC, but then some people count almost anything as cheating.
Offtopic: does anyone know if that actually works? I know I’m generally aware of when I’m deliberately manipulating the truth; indeed, it’s actually easier (in my experience and according to conversations with a friend) to loose track of when you’re telling them something you actually made up, as if it were the truth (I assume this would help with most forms of lie-detection.) OTOH, I know nothing about lie detection of any kind.
You mean “most people count [dirty talk] as cheating [when you’re in a relationship with someone else]”? Or “most people count [self-sophistry in attempt to fool lie detectors] as cheating [when taking surveys]”? If the former, yes, but then most people would count French kissing as cheating, too, whereas virtually no-one would count is as sex. If the latter… I don’t think such people give a damn whether they are cheating, or if they did they’d also answer honestly when there’s no fake lie detector.
AFAIK lie detectors measure the effect of emotional responses (heart rate, sweating, etc.), so to a zeroth approximation you’ll get caught iff you alieve you’ll get caught. So, it’d depend on how the respondents alieve lie detectors work.
IME (though these anecdotes date back to my childhood, so my recollection may be unreliable), when Muggle adults see a toy that purports to be a lie detector (e.g. an analog thermometer like a mood ring), they start to say statements whose truth value they couldn’t possibly know themselves (e.g. “Juventus will defeat Manchester Utd tomorrow night”) and purport that they will bet based on the outcome. Which means that either 1) they are idiots, or 2) they realize that the widget cannot possibly detect lies, and sarcastically reduce the claim ad absurdum. If it’s 1), such people may think that lie detectors somehow respond to the actual words you say rather than your state of mind, and so that they wouldn’t detect a statement that is denotationally true but connotationally false.
You mean “lose track of what the truth is”, or “lose track of what you told them”? I’d guess the former (or that there’s a missing “than” somewhere); the latter would contradict my experience, but then AFAIK I’m worse at (and reluctant to) lying than most other people.
Whoops! Overlooked the double meaning of “cheating”. I meant it regarding the sex stuff, not the lie stuff.
Not that’s an idea I hadn’t heard before. I’ve always seen it framed as “people are nervous when they lie.”
I’m pretty sure I’ve made that same joke, as essentially a pun on the two meanings of “truth”. Still …