That only changes the target of my criticism (now all of you, instead of just Luke), not the criticism itself, obviously.
The “the” isn’t droppable, because it was never part of the name in the first place: it was never “The Singularity Institute”; but rather “the Singularity Institute”. That is, the article is a part of the contextual grammar. Attempting to “drop” it would be like me declaring that “komponisto” must always be followed by plural verb forms.
(Some organizations do have “The” in the name itself, e.g. The Heritage Foundation. They could decide to drop the “The”, and then their logo would say “Heritage Foundation”. But one would still write “at the Heritage Foundation”; one just wouldn’t write “at The Heritage Foundation”.)
I don’t know of any example of an “Institute” where people don’t use an article in such a context—which suggests that any such example that might exist isn’t high-status enough for me to have heard of it. Even the one that I thought might be an example—the Mathematical Sciences Research Institute—also has a grammatical “the”!
You guys should want to be like IAS and MSRI (after all, you’d rather the people at those places be working for you instead!) I don’t understand the rationale for this gratuitous eccentricity.
(Some organizations do have “The” in the name itself, e.g. The Heritage Foundation. They could decide to drop the “The”, and then their logo would say “Heritage Foundation”. But one would still write “at the Heritage Foundation”; one just wouldn’t write “at The Heritage Foundation”.)
Military units are the only counterexample I can think of, but using “the” is correct for them too, I think. Glancing at wikipedia, it is inconsistent within articles,
During January 1919, the Third Army was engaged in training and preparing the troops under its command for any contingency...Accordingly the Third Army was disbanded on 2 July 1919.
and
Until the buildup of American forces prior to its entry into World War II, Third Army remained largely a paper formation...Mobilization saw Third Army take on the role of training some of the huge numbers of recruits that the draft was bringing into the Armed Forces.
Perhaps Singularity Institute is an aspiring paramilitary force.
Indeed—“A dinner at Singularity Institute” would be pronounced “A dinner at ; Singularity Institute”, with an awkward pause inserted due to the obviously missing article. Contrast with “A dinner at the Singularity Institute”.
I personally find “the SIAI” sound ridiculous to me. Do you log on to the Facebook while you read the Less Wrong? How many alumni from the MIT work at the NASA? How about that story on the CNN about the record profits at the PEPSI?
Notice a pattern? Well marketed concerns all drop “the” in their product or company name. Marketing science has demonstrated again and again that shorter names are more memorable and strictly better. Since English is not airtight on this matter, I say Science > English.
Abbreviations are treated separately from the corresponding full names. One doesn’t say “the ABC”, but one does say “the American Broadcasting Company”. Likewise, “SIAI” (not “the SIAI”), but “the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence”.
You say:
I personally find “the SIAI” sound ridiculous to me
Guess what: I agree! Quite a while ago, I pointed out that “the SIAI” was a non-native quirk introduced by XiXiDu (and for some reason picked up by certain native speakers). Maybe it was too subtle for some people, but in that comment I was expressing the fact that “the SIAI” sounds completely wrong to me.
I don’t understand why this is so complicated. One says “at the Singularity Institute”, but also “at SIAI”. This is the default English usage. It’s what people have been saying all along. There is nothing weird, complex, or freaky going on here. I’m advocating a return to normalcy!
You ask:
Notice a pattern?
The answer is yes: people consistently underestimate the information content of my comments, and often simply fail to read what they say. This drives me frickin’ crazy!
You have all of my sympathies. What you are saying makes perfect sense (as such, I have nothing to add or take away from it), and I agree with it completely.
That said, I understand why you’re getting so hot-blooded. I’m getting hot-blooded over Louie’s systematic failure to understand you, and I’m not even the one being misunderstood!
Guess what: I agree! Quite a while ago, I pointed out that “the SIAI” was a non-native quirk introduced by XiXiDu (and for some reason picked up by certain native speakers).
Please correct me if I am wrong, I haven’t read up on language evolution yet. But isn’t it the case that natural language evolves? Unlike math, if enough people believe that a certain syntax is correct then it is correct. So if I start to write “the SIAI” at a time when people think that it sounds wrong but then gradually more and more people adapt that notation and start to perceive it to sound right, doesn’t it become right?
If you like I will from now on use the syntax that you suggest simply because you seem to care strongly about it while I don’t care at all.
Work at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration or work at NASA. Refer to wikipedia if you are in doubt.
Notice a pattern?
Of the list you gave MIT and NASA are both analogous to SIAI. CNN is an entirely different kind of acronym and Pepsi isn’t an acronym at all so doesn’t even get allcaps when written in a sentence. Follow the example of the MIT and NASA, both of which use ‘the’ before the full name but not before the acronym. Because not doing so looks ridiculous.
Well marketed concerns all drop “the” in their product or company name. Marketing science has demonstrated again and again that shorter names are more memorable and strictly better. Since English is not airtight on this matter, I say Science > English.
Muddled thinking based on poorly understood science < English < Science.
Colonizing the middle ground between you and komponisto, I think it should be “the Singularity Institute”, “the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence”, and “SIAI”.
I don’t think komponisto is even advocating for “the SIAI”. It says “IAS” and “MSRI” despite saying “the Mathematical Sciences Research Institute”.
Colonizing the middle ground between you and komponisto, I think it should be “the Singularity Institute”, “the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence”, and “SIAI”.
That isn’t the “middle ground”! That is exactly my position!
Whenever you are speaking (or typing) in public you must consider the message conveyed to the audience as much (or often more) than the message to the person you are addressing. In this case by claiming for yourself the ‘middle ground’ you are positioning komponisto outside of that ground. Since you then go on to present what is essentially the only sane position to have on the subject your giving somewhat of significant slight to komponisto—the casual observer is being led to believe that kompo has been saying something silly.
Being (apparently) oblivious to what you are doing you opted to condescend to komponisto rather than politely retract or ideally just leave kompo’s reaffirmation as the final word. This is a mistake and changes how people will interpret the exchange. I, for example, just downvoted your initial mistake as well as the parent. While I noticed the distortion of komponisto’s position on my first read I let it pass because it was a minor part of an otherwise decent comment. When you latter tried to reinforce you message with a challenge it became the salient detail and one the likes of which I prefer to discourage.
I didn’t consider it condescending; I thought it was amusingly ironic. (Note the juxtaposition: “he gets the second person and you don’t.”) But you’ve made it clear my opinion on my tone doesn’t matter. So it goes. It’s a pity you can’t downvote me twice.
That only changes the target of my criticism (now all of you, instead of just Luke), not the criticism itself, obviously.
The “the” isn’t droppable, because it was never part of the name in the first place: it was never “The Singularity Institute”; but rather “the Singularity Institute”. That is, the article is a part of the contextual grammar. Attempting to “drop” it would be like me declaring that “komponisto” must always be followed by plural verb forms.
(Some organizations do have “The” in the name itself, e.g. The Heritage Foundation. They could decide to drop the “The”, and then their logo would say “Heritage Foundation”. But one would still write “at the Heritage Foundation”; one just wouldn’t write “at The Heritage Foundation”.)
I don’t know of any example of an “Institute” where people don’t use an article in such a context—which suggests that any such example that might exist isn’t high-status enough for me to have heard of it. Even the one that I thought might be an example—the Mathematical Sciences Research Institute—also has a grammatical “the”!
You guys should want to be like IAS and MSRI (after all, you’d rather the people at those places be working for you instead!) I don’t understand the rationale for this gratuitous eccentricity.
Military units are the only counterexample I can think of, but using “the” is correct for them too, I think. Glancing at wikipedia, it is inconsistent within articles,
and
Perhaps Singularity Institute is an aspiring paramilitary force.
Indeed—“A dinner at Singularity Institute” would be pronounced “A dinner at ; Singularity Institute”, with an awkward pause inserted due to the obviously missing article. Contrast with “A dinner at the Singularity Institute”.
I personally find “the SIAI” sound ridiculous to me. Do you log on to the Facebook while you read the Less Wrong? How many alumni from the MIT work at the NASA? How about that story on the CNN about the record profits at the PEPSI?
Notice a pattern? Well marketed concerns all drop “the” in their product or company name. Marketing science has demonstrated again and again that shorter names are more memorable and strictly better. Since English is not airtight on this matter, I say Science > English.
Louie, please read my comments again and tell me if you still think your reply makes any sense whatsoever as a response.
Because—I’m sorry to say—this represents a total failure of reading comprehension. Quoting myself:
here:
In the same comment:
Here::
Here::
You say:
Guess what: I agree! Quite a while ago, I pointed out that “the SIAI” was a non-native quirk introduced by XiXiDu (and for some reason picked up by certain native speakers). Maybe it was too subtle for some people, but in that comment I was expressing the fact that “the SIAI” sounds completely wrong to me.
I don’t understand why this is so complicated. One says “at the Singularity Institute”, but also “at SIAI”. This is the default English usage. It’s what people have been saying all along. There is nothing weird, complex, or freaky going on here. I’m advocating a return to normalcy!
You ask:
The answer is yes: people consistently underestimate the information content of my comments, and often simply fail to read what they say. This drives me frickin’ crazy!
You have all of my sympathies. What you are saying makes perfect sense (as such, I have nothing to add or take away from it), and I agree with it completely.
That said, I understand why you’re getting so hot-blooded. I’m getting hot-blooded over Louie’s systematic failure to understand you, and I’m not even the one being misunderstood!
(Keeping in mind, all the while, Wiio’s Laws.)
upvoted for the link to Wiio’s Laws.
Please correct me if I am wrong, I haven’t read up on language evolution yet. But isn’t it the case that natural language evolves? Unlike math, if enough people believe that a certain syntax is correct then it is correct. So if I start to write “the SIAI” at a time when people think that it sounds wrong but then gradually more and more people adapt that notation and start to perceive it to sound right, doesn’t it become right?
If you like I will from now on use the syntax that you suggest simply because you seem to care strongly about it while I don’t care at all.
Work at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration or work at NASA. Refer to wikipedia if you are in doubt.
Of the list you gave MIT and NASA are both analogous to SIAI. CNN is an entirely different kind of acronym and Pepsi isn’t an acronym at all so doesn’t even get allcaps when written in a sentence. Follow the example of the MIT and NASA, both of which use ‘the’ before the full name but not before the acronym. Because not doing so looks ridiculous.
Muddled thinking based on poorly understood science < English < Science.
“The SIAI” wasn’t suggested. “The Singularity Institute [for Artificial Intelligence]” was.
Colonizing the middle ground between you and komponisto, I think it should be “the Singularity Institute”, “the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence”, and “SIAI”.
I don’t think komponisto is even advocating for “the SIAI”. It says “IAS” and “MSRI” despite saying “the Mathematical Sciences Research Institute”.
That isn’t the “middle ground”! That is exactly my position!
This wasn’t for your frame of reference, but for Louie’s. That’s why he gets the second person and you don’t.
I didn’t consider it condescending; I thought it was amusingly ironic. (Note the juxtaposition: “he gets the second person and you don’t.”) But you’ve made it clear my opinion on my tone doesn’t matter. So it goes. It’s a pity you can’t downvote me twice.