Sleep is also an interesting example of pathologies in American high schools. Why do they start so insanely early
As long as the “insanely early” hours do not involve starting school before dawn, this is a non-issue. Anyone can adjust their circadian rhythm by just going to sleep earlier, and/or by napping throughout the day in order to compensate for any sleep deficits; we should be raising awareness about these solutions among students. Simply starting school later would not have substantial effects in the long run, anymore than, say, changing to DST, or moving to a different timezone would.
Anyone can adjust their circadian rhythm by just going to sleep earlier, and/or by napping throughout the day in order to compensate for any sleep deficits; we should be raising awareness about these solutions among students.
No, they can’t. Students do nap during the day (that’s part of the problem!), and they can try but fail to just go to bed earlier. That’s why they don’t go to bed. If your claims were true, there would never be any problem and the experiments in changing school times would never show any benefit. There is a problem and the experiments do show benefits. You are just offering folk psychology speculation and fake willpower solutions which don’t work. People are not ghosts in the machine, they are the machine, and ‘just go to bed earlier’ doesn’t do anything about the zeitgebers and biology of the thing.
the experiments in changing school times would never show any benefit.
That’s not solid proof. What’s relevant is whether different school times can possibly affect things in the longer run, well after the effects of the transition itself are over.
You are just offering folk psychology speculation
“Folk psychology speculation” is a good way to describe the assumption that some teenagers are just “night owls” and cannot possibly manage to retrain their sleep cycle.
‘just go to bed earlier’ doesn’t do anything about the zeitgebers and biology of the thing.
“Just going to bed earlier” encompasses making reasonable efforts that might also involve changing these environmental cues and zeitgebers. Of course if your evening routine involves drinking strong coffee, “just going to bed earlier” might not work very well. The solution is to change that habit.
So, remind me, why does the West have that obesity epidemic going on?
Well, a simple conjecture is that many obese people in the West care more about their obesity being “accepted” in a way that’s fully open and free of “unwanted discrimination”, than about losing weight in the first place. (Many of them are also not too happy about being made aware of the clearly negative effect of being obese on their own health.) Such attitudes of entitlement seem to be a rather pervasive problem in contemporary Western culture.
“Anyone can just do x” is an insane and unrealistic way to frame solutions to a problem. Like saying “to stop the obesity epidemic we just need to tell people they have to eat less and exercise more.” or “we should tell people to save more money for retirement” the fact that you can frame a solution in simple terms does not in fact make it a non-issue.
also for much of the year in America going to school DOES in fact involve getting up well before dawn.
“to stop the obesity epidemic we just need to tell people they have to eat less and exercise more.”
Well, if by ‘obesity epidemic’ you mean “people complaining about how fat they are” (by analogy with the complaint about school starting too early), then yes, that’s exactly what should happen. Start exercising, reduce your intake of highly-processed foods/drinks, and you’ll be losing weight. Part of being rational involves being willing to shoulder responsibility for things that are quite easily under your direct control.
Part of being rational involves not trying the same thing over and over that doesn’t work. Giving people the factually correct, simple advice that you believe does not work.
Simply starting school later would not have substantial effects in the long run, anymore than, say, changing to DST, or moving to a different timezone would.
Wait… DST makes sunrises and sunsets later by civil clocks, so I would expect its effects to be quite the opposite of starting school later (and pretty similar to those of starting schools earlier). Did you mean to say something like “abolishing DST” instead, or am I missing something?
Anyone can adjust their circadian rhythm by just going to sleep earlier,
No, the circadian rhythm doesn’t work that way. Perhaps you don’t notice because your chronotype is earlier than your lifestyle required so you never had much trouble falling asleep even when going to bed relatively early, but people with later chronotypes if they go to bed earlier will just take more time to fall asleep.
Everyone has trouble falling asleep when they’re going to bed earlier than usual, at first. If you keep at it and are consistent about avoiding things like bright artificial lights, high general arousal, strong drugs like coffee and other adverse environmental cues later in the day, you’ll fall asleep and your “chronotype” will shift back as intended.
So how about some actual evidence for these claims?
I mean, the medical profession has terms like “advanced sleep phase disorder” and “delayed sleep phase disorder” and “non-24-hour sleep-wake disorder” and seems to take the view that “just go to bed later/earlier/regularly and it’ll sort itself out” is not a helpful response. Now, obviously, those are just doctors; what do they know? But it might be helpful to know how it is you know that they’re wrong.
Or, when you say “Anyone can …”, is it possible that you don’t actually mean anyone?
seems to take the view that “just go to bed later/earlier/regularly and it’ll sort itself out” is not a helpful response.
I don’t think this follows from what you said earlier. “Advanced sleep phase disorder” and “delayed sleep phase disorder” are indeed taken seriously as genuine problems, but they’re invariably ‘treated’ with lifestyle interventions, such as (in the ‘delayed’ case) avoiding bright/artificial light late in the day, and (conversely) letting sunlight into the bedroom some time before you’re scheduled to wake up. Sometimes these interventions are also aided by taking melatonin (or a comparable supplement), but come on, this is hardly a “medical treatment” in the usual sense!
As long as the “insanely early” hours do not involve starting school before dawn, this is a non-issue. Anyone can adjust their circadian rhythm by just going to sleep earlier, and/or by napping throughout the day in order to compensate for any sleep deficits; we should be raising awareness about these solutions among students. Simply starting school later would not have substantial effects in the long run, anymore than, say, changing to DST, or moving to a different timezone would.
No, they can’t. Students do nap during the day (that’s part of the problem!), and they can try but fail to just go to bed earlier. That’s why they don’t go to bed. If your claims were true, there would never be any problem and the experiments in changing school times would never show any benefit. There is a problem and the experiments do show benefits. You are just offering folk psychology speculation and fake willpower solutions which don’t work. People are not ghosts in the machine, they are the machine, and ‘just go to bed earlier’ doesn’t do anything about the zeitgebers and biology of the thing.
Do you see why this comparison doesn’t work?
That’s not solid proof. What’s relevant is whether different school times can possibly affect things in the longer run, well after the effects of the transition itself are over.
“Folk psychology speculation” is a good way to describe the assumption that some teenagers are just “night owls” and cannot possibly manage to retrain their sleep cycle.
“Just going to bed earlier” encompasses making reasonable efforts that might also involve changing these environmental cues and zeitgebers. Of course if your evening routine involves drinking strong coffee, “just going to bed earlier” might not work very well. The solution is to change that habit.
So, remind me, why does the West have that obesity epidemic going on? Clearly, “the solution is to change the habit” so why isn’t it working?
Well, a simple conjecture is that many obese people in the West care more about their obesity being “accepted” in a way that’s fully open and free of “unwanted discrimination”, than about losing weight in the first place. (Many of them are also not too happy about being made aware of the clearly negative effect of being obese on their own health.) Such attitudes of entitlement seem to be a rather pervasive problem in contemporary Western culture.
this is why we need downvotes
“Anyone can just do x” is an insane and unrealistic way to frame solutions to a problem. Like saying “to stop the obesity epidemic we just need to tell people they have to eat less and exercise more.” or “we should tell people to save more money for retirement” the fact that you can frame a solution in simple terms does not in fact make it a non-issue.
also for much of the year in America going to school DOES in fact involve getting up well before dawn.
I for one had to get up at 5 AM and do homework until midnight most weekdays.
Well, if by ‘obesity epidemic’ you mean “people complaining about how fat they are” (by analogy with the complaint about school starting too early), then yes, that’s exactly what should happen. Start exercising, reduce your intake of highly-processed foods/drinks, and you’ll be losing weight. Part of being rational involves being willing to shoulder responsibility for things that are quite easily under your direct control.
Is it? Source of more information? Or do you have extended reasoning for that idea?
Edit: did you mean agency?
Part of being rational involves not trying the same thing over and over that doesn’t work. Giving people the factually correct, simple advice that you believe does not work.
Wait… DST makes sunrises and sunsets later by civil clocks, so I would expect its effects to be quite the opposite of starting school later (and pretty similar to those of starting schools earlier). Did you mean to say something like “abolishing DST” instead, or am I missing something?
No, the circadian rhythm doesn’t work that way. Perhaps you don’t notice because your chronotype is earlier than your lifestyle required so you never had much trouble falling asleep even when going to bed relatively early, but people with later chronotypes if they go to bed earlier will just take more time to fall asleep.
Everyone has trouble falling asleep when they’re going to bed earlier than usual, at first. If you keep at it and are consistent about avoiding things like bright artificial lights, high general arousal, strong drugs like coffee and other adverse environmental cues later in the day, you’ll fall asleep and your “chronotype” will shift back as intended.
So how about some actual evidence for these claims?
I mean, the medical profession has terms like “advanced sleep phase disorder” and “delayed sleep phase disorder” and “non-24-hour sleep-wake disorder” and seems to take the view that “just go to bed later/earlier/regularly and it’ll sort itself out” is not a helpful response. Now, obviously, those are just doctors; what do they know? But it might be helpful to know how it is you know that they’re wrong.
Or, when you say “Anyone can …”, is it possible that you don’t actually mean anyone?
I don’t think this follows from what you said earlier. “Advanced sleep phase disorder” and “delayed sleep phase disorder” are indeed taken seriously as genuine problems, but they’re invariably ‘treated’ with lifestyle interventions, such as (in the ‘delayed’ case) avoiding bright/artificial light late in the day, and (conversely) letting sunlight into the bedroom some time before you’re scheduled to wake up. Sometimes these interventions are also aided by taking melatonin (or a comparable supplement), but come on, this is hardly a “medical treatment” in the usual sense!