The government, though, was a different matter all together. I assumed that a lot of very smart people had put a lot of effort into its design — that’s what the “Founding Fathers” meme implied, anyway.
I’ve always taken the framing of the US Constitution as a cautionary tale about the importance of getting things exactly right. The founding fathers were highly intelligent (some of them, anyway), well-read and fastidious; after a careful review of numerous different contemporary and historical government systems, from the Iriquois confederacy to ancient Greek city-states, they devised a very clever, highly non-obvious alternative designed to be watertight against any loopholes they could think of, including being self-modifying in carefully regulated ways.
It almost worked. They created a system that came very, very close to preventing dictatorship and oligarchy… and the United States today is a grim testament to what happens when you cleverly construct an optimization engine that almost works.
One of the things that is impressive about the Constitution is that it was designed to last a few decades and then reset in a new Constitutional Convention when it got too far from optimal. It’s gone far beyond spec at this point, and works.. relatively well.
The source I took this from? My highschool History and Government teacher. Actual source to prove it? Can’t find a solid one, though Jefferson certainly endorsed this position (blogpost goes into some detail into one of his letters). Jefferson was extremely suspicious of central government in general (he was the leader of the Republican/states-first faction at the time, as opposed to the Federalist/country-first faction), so I’m not sure how much of the rest would agree.
Looking into it further, here’s the letter from Jefferson to Madison, and here is Madison’s reply. Summary: Nah, 19 years is too short, we’re writing law for the “yet unborn” as well as the living. Madison was at the other extreme, obviously; he was one of the most Federalist (though probably not the most; I’d give that spot to Adams).
However, the fact that there is a section of the calling of a Constitutional Convention indicates that they expected it to be used. I have no proof, but I’d be willing to bet that Madison, Jefferson, and anyone in between would be very surprised that that provision has never been used in 230 years.
He was a damn good teacher, to be fair. And this was in one of the areas he taught an elective of his own design, so it was something he had studied in more depth than you’d expect.
With respect, I think you’re giving the American Founders too much credit. Their values were not our values, and their Constitution works extremely well for the kind of society they aimed to create: a republic of white, male, propertied yeoman farmers whose main disagreements were whether to allow slavery and whether this “industrialization” thing would catch on. If the system appears broken today, it is because it is attempting to enforce the norms of a republic of white, male, propertied yeoman farmers on an increasingly urbanized/suburbanized, increasingly post-industrial and networked, increasingly multicultural nation spread across many times the population and land area of the original.
Times have actually, really changed, and so have values, but the dead hands of the Founding Fathers are still preserving their norms and values in our time. That is very good engineering.
My reading suggests that the main disagreements among the framers of the US Constitution (the “Founding Fathers” phrase is a bit too hagiographic for my taste) had to do with regional rivalry and the degree of centralization of power—concerns which I wouldn’t call modern as such, but could fairly be described as perennial. (Compare the modern urban vs. rural distinction, which drives most of the red vs. blue state divide.) Slavery factored into this, but mainly as a factor informing regional differences—it wouldn’t reach its ultimate apocalyptic nation-breaking significance until westward expansion had started in earnest and the abolition movement gained some steam. I’m unaware of any significant disputes over industrialization in early US politics.
Should have been more precise. I was talking about the roughly 10-year period between independence and the acceptance of the US Constitution. The 1790s are early in the nation’s history, all right, but that was a period of very rapid evolution in US politics.
You may know your American history better than I, but I do remember some nascent concerns over whether industry and finance could gain too much power versus the agricultural sector.
I’ve always taken the framing of the US Constitution as a cautionary tale about the importance of getting things exactly right. The founding fathers were highly intelligent (some of them, anyway), well-read and fastidious; after a careful review of numerous different contemporary and historical government systems, from the Iriquois confederacy to ancient Greek city-states, they devised a very clever, highly non-obvious alternative designed to be watertight against any loopholes they could think of, including being self-modifying in carefully regulated ways.
It almost worked. They created a system that came very, very close to preventing dictatorship and oligarchy… and the United States today is a grim testament to what happens when you cleverly construct an optimization engine that almost works.
One of the things that is impressive about the Constitution is that it was designed to last a few decades and then reset in a new Constitutional Convention when it got too far from optimal. It’s gone far beyond spec at this point, and works.. relatively well.
Source?
The source I took this from? My highschool History and Government teacher. Actual source to prove it? Can’t find a solid one, though Jefferson certainly endorsed this position (blogpost goes into some detail into one of his letters). Jefferson was extremely suspicious of central government in general (he was the leader of the Republican/states-first faction at the time, as opposed to the Federalist/country-first faction), so I’m not sure how much of the rest would agree.
Looking into it further, here’s the letter from Jefferson to Madison, and here is Madison’s reply. Summary: Nah, 19 years is too short, we’re writing law for the “yet unborn” as well as the living. Madison was at the other extreme, obviously; he was one of the most Federalist (though probably not the most; I’d give that spot to Adams).
However, the fact that there is a section of the calling of a Constitutional Convention indicates that they expected it to be used. I have no proof, but I’d be willing to bet that Madison, Jefferson, and anyone in between would be very surprised that that provision has never been used in 230 years.
Not the most trustworthy source.
He was a damn good teacher, to be fair. And this was in one of the areas he taught an elective of his own design, so it was something he had studied in more depth than you’d expect.
Thanks for the answer.
With respect, I think you’re giving the American Founders too much credit. Their values were not our values, and their Constitution works extremely well for the kind of society they aimed to create: a republic of white, male, propertied yeoman farmers whose main disagreements were whether to allow slavery and whether this “industrialization” thing would catch on. If the system appears broken today, it is because it is attempting to enforce the norms of a republic of white, male, propertied yeoman farmers on an increasingly urbanized/suburbanized, increasingly post-industrial and networked, increasingly multicultural nation spread across many times the population and land area of the original.
Times have actually, really changed, and so have values, but the dead hands of the Founding Fathers are still preserving their norms and values in our time. That is very good engineering.
My reading suggests that the main disagreements among the framers of the US Constitution (the “Founding Fathers” phrase is a bit too hagiographic for my taste) had to do with regional rivalry and the degree of centralization of power—concerns which I wouldn’t call modern as such, but could fairly be described as perennial. (Compare the modern urban vs. rural distinction, which drives most of the red vs. blue state divide.) Slavery factored into this, but mainly as a factor informing regional differences—it wouldn’t reach its ultimate apocalyptic nation-breaking significance until westward expansion had started in earnest and the abolition movement gained some steam. I’m unaware of any significant disputes over industrialization in early US politics.
Hamilton vs Jefferson comes to mind.
I thought that didn’t happen until a decade or so later?
That doesn’t qualify as “early”?
Should have been more precise. I was talking about the roughly 10-year period between independence and the acceptance of the US Constitution. The 1790s are early in the nation’s history, all right, but that was a period of very rapid evolution in US politics.
You may know your American history better than I, but I do remember some nascent concerns over whether industry and finance could gain too much power versus the agricultural sector.
It’s entirely possible I’m just wrong, though.
...Tolkien..? :-D
I believe Nornagest counted that under urban versus rural.