Man, I registered just so I could vote and then it turns out there’s something called karma.
This post is almost entirely nonsense. I give it “almost” simply because in certain all-URM school districts the corruption level is high. It’s within the realm of possibility that “fake grants” to “fake grant programs” that are nothing more than chump change doled out by large employers who can wave the program in front of Jesse Jackson and his ilk—look! We’re providing gravy!--so I won’t call it an outright lie. But it’s certainly not the norm. Did you notice that this guy acts like the education world is comprised solely of blacks and whites? If any element of his story is true, it’s because he lives or works in an all black school district that is, indeed, corrupt. Detroit, New Jersey somewhere, or the like. And that’s a generous interpretation.
The second half of his post is so risible I’m amazed anyone takes it seriously. We live in a world where, as I write this, federal settlements are forced on schools that suspend or expel minorities at a higher rate, never mind the details, and anyone believes that schools assign classes by race? It’s not just wrong. It’s an outright LIE. Even in very rich schools that have low income URM students (and I can think of five within 20 miles of my home), the pressure to integrate classes when the kids are unprepared is huge. Principals are at risk for losing AP classes if they don’t put enough URMs in them. They face lawsuits if they do use tests to assign kids to advanced classes, much less if they assigned by race. As for the idea that black students do well if the teachers like them there? Please. Teachers have next to no say as to their assignments—it’s one area in which principals have a great deal of control.
Every word beginning with “unfortunately” is such a lie I’m astonished anyone would credit it.
I upvoted this comment, because I’m interested in hearing a dissenting view on this, but … I find this to be pretty poor dissent.
You should tone down your accusations, and especially make them more precise—on the face of it, I’m not sure to what extent the things that you’re saying (like “the pressure to integrate classes when the kids are unprepared is huge”) actually contradict the OP, as opposed to merely being evidence that supports a different interpretation (and you’ll find arguments for both sides on any disagreement).
Mostly, from my French point of view, I’m seeing American politics cloud up issues here, and I would much rather see a dispassionate discussion of the facts rather than flinging accusations back and forth. Too much “THIS IS A LIE AND YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS”, not enough “this particular specific statement appears to be false, and here is why”.
Likewise upvoted, likewise would prefer higher-quality criticism.
Given how incredibly important education is and how few citations there are here (at the moment, from both ‘sides’), forgetting to actually think about something for five minutes before updating your beliefs would be a very bad idea.
Is it possible that different parts of USA have different situation, because of a different state, different county, or just depending on whether the parents in the specific school are politically savvy, know their rights and fight for them?
Sometimes the official rules are the same for everyone, and yet what actually happens, depends more on the local culture. Maybe the lawsuits get big media attention, but in reality they happen rarely and require a lot of effort on parents’ side (or a coincidence that some political group decides to push this cause), so most parents don’t even try.
Is it possible that different parts of USA have different situation, because of a different state, different county, or just depending on whether the parents in the specific school are politically savvy, know their rights and fight for them?
In a country where some school districts have higher college acceptance rates than others have high school graduation rates, I would say this is a near-certainty.
I actually think there’s a decent chance this story is a hoax, but not because it is remotely implausible. It sounds exactly like everything I’ve heard about the NYC school system.
As for the idea that black students do well if the teachers like them there? Please. Teachers have next to no say as to their assignments—it’s one area in which principals have a great deal of control.
I do not know where you come from, but I have personally reviewed the math placement criteria of hundreds of middle schools and high schools. Teacher recommendations are always on the list, whereas I have never seen a school which used “principal recommendations”. Wake County, NC’s placement criteria: http://www.wcpss.net/policy-files/series/policies/5611-bp.html Alamance County’s placement criteria: http://tinyurl.com/d35dtfy I will find more if you’d like me to, but teacher recommendations are plainly listed. In my experience, principals generally back their math teachers when it comes to which students get placed where.
We live in a world where, as I write this, federal settlements are forced on schools that suspend or expel minorities at a higher rate, never mind the details, and anyone believes that schools assign classes by race? It’s not just wrong. It’s an outright LIE.
The schools do not outright assign math placement based on race; it is slightly more subtle than this. An example would be Wake County, in North Carolina. Wake County used a model called the “effectiveness index”. A student is given a score based on: 1) Their previous test scores 2) Their income level (trinary: free lunch, reduced-price lunch, normal) 3) Their race. If two students with exactly equal grades and test scores were evaluated using the effectiveness index, with one student being a poor black, and another being a middle-class white, the former would be given a lower residual score, and therefore would be less likely to be placed into an advanced class. These scores were also used to determine how well a school is doing at teaching. If the poor black student did as well as the white student, the difference between his score and his effectiveness index residual would be larger than the white student’s, and so the school would be rewarded for overcoming the “risk factors” of being poor and black and managing to instruct him anyway. Wake county is currently doing away with the effectiveness index, replacing it with EVAAS, a system which takes into account nothing but test scores. Source: http://content.news14.com/pdf/sas_report.pdf
Can you point me to a federal settlement forced on a school that suspends or expels minorities at a higher rate? I ask because in all of the school districts I have worked with, the schools did suspend minorities at a higher rate, and I have yet to see any consequences for this.
Principals are at risk for losing AP classes if they don’t put enough URMs in them.
This, as well, I would like to see a citation for.
This post is almost entirely nonsense. I give it “almost” simply because in certain all-URM school districts the corruption level is high. It’s within the realm of possibility that “fake grants” to “fake grant programs” that are nothing more than chump change doled out by large employers who can wave the program in front of Jesse Jackson and his ilk—look! We’re providing gravy!--so I won’t call it an outright lie. But it’s certainly not the norm. Did you notice that this guy acts like the education world is comprised solely of blacks and whites? If any element of his story is true, it’s because he lives or works in an all black school district that is, indeed, corrupt. Detroit, New Jersey somewhere, or the like. And that’s a generous interpretation.
The school districts I have worked with have varied from being 90% black to 3% black. You are right in that I should have said “minority” rather than “black”, for hispanics, native americans, and other minorities are at a similar disadvantage. However, I’ve seen enough districts in enough states that I, at least, believe the traits I ascribed to the education system to be nearly universal.
Do you have citeable evidence that principals are facing lawsuits for using ‘teacher recommendations’ to either
assign students to limited slots, or to discourage students from competing for those slots (e.g. tell students that a teacher recommendation is required, knowing that one group of students will see it as more of a bar to entry than another, resulting in a smaller proportion of that group even competing for the slot).
Because either of those actions are indistinguishable from using race as a factor in determining access to classes.
Man, I registered just so I could vote and then it turns out there’s something called karma.
This post is almost entirely nonsense. I give it “almost” simply because in certain all-URM school districts the corruption level is high. It’s within the realm of possibility that “fake grants” to “fake grant programs” that are nothing more than chump change doled out by large employers who can wave the program in front of Jesse Jackson and his ilk—look! We’re providing gravy!--so I won’t call it an outright lie. But it’s certainly not the norm. Did you notice that this guy acts like the education world is comprised solely of blacks and whites? If any element of his story is true, it’s because he lives or works in an all black school district that is, indeed, corrupt. Detroit, New Jersey somewhere, or the like. And that’s a generous interpretation.
The second half of his post is so risible I’m amazed anyone takes it seriously. We live in a world where, as I write this, federal settlements are forced on schools that suspend or expel minorities at a higher rate, never mind the details, and anyone believes that schools assign classes by race? It’s not just wrong. It’s an outright LIE. Even in very rich schools that have low income URM students (and I can think of five within 20 miles of my home), the pressure to integrate classes when the kids are unprepared is huge. Principals are at risk for losing AP classes if they don’t put enough URMs in them. They face lawsuits if they do use tests to assign kids to advanced classes, much less if they assigned by race. As for the idea that black students do well if the teachers like them there? Please. Teachers have next to no say as to their assignments—it’s one area in which principals have a great deal of control.
Every word beginning with “unfortunately” is such a lie I’m astonished anyone would credit it.
I upvoted this comment, because I’m interested in hearing a dissenting view on this, but … I find this to be pretty poor dissent.
You should tone down your accusations, and especially make them more precise—on the face of it, I’m not sure to what extent the things that you’re saying (like “the pressure to integrate classes when the kids are unprepared is huge”) actually contradict the OP, as opposed to merely being evidence that supports a different interpretation (and you’ll find arguments for both sides on any disagreement).
Mostly, from my French point of view, I’m seeing American politics cloud up issues here, and I would much rather see a dispassionate discussion of the facts rather than flinging accusations back and forth. Too much “THIS IS A LIE AND YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS”, not enough “this particular specific statement appears to be false, and here is why”.
Likewise upvoted, likewise would prefer higher-quality criticism.
Given how incredibly important education is and how few citations there are here (at the moment, from both ‘sides’), forgetting to actually think about something for five minutes before updating your beliefs would be a very bad idea.
Is it possible that different parts of USA have different situation, because of a different state, different county, or just depending on whether the parents in the specific school are politically savvy, know their rights and fight for them?
Sometimes the official rules are the same for everyone, and yet what actually happens, depends more on the local culture. Maybe the lawsuits get big media attention, but in reality they happen rarely and require a lot of effort on parents’ side (or a coincidence that some political group decides to push this cause), so most parents don’t even try.
In a country where some school districts have higher college acceptance rates than others have high school graduation rates, I would say this is a near-certainty.
I actually think there’s a decent chance this story is a hoax, but not because it is remotely implausible. It sounds exactly like everything I’ve heard about the NYC school system.
Upvoted because I’d like to see the OP address your questions.
I apologize for the late response.
I do not know where you come from, but I have personally reviewed the math placement criteria of hundreds of middle schools and high schools. Teacher recommendations are always on the list, whereas I have never seen a school which used “principal recommendations”. Wake County, NC’s placement criteria: http://www.wcpss.net/policy-files/series/policies/5611-bp.html Alamance County’s placement criteria: http://tinyurl.com/d35dtfy I will find more if you’d like me to, but teacher recommendations are plainly listed. In my experience, principals generally back their math teachers when it comes to which students get placed where.
The schools do not outright assign math placement based on race; it is slightly more subtle than this. An example would be Wake County, in North Carolina. Wake County used a model called the “effectiveness index”. A student is given a score based on: 1) Their previous test scores 2) Their income level (trinary: free lunch, reduced-price lunch, normal) 3) Their race. If two students with exactly equal grades and test scores were evaluated using the effectiveness index, with one student being a poor black, and another being a middle-class white, the former would be given a lower residual score, and therefore would be less likely to be placed into an advanced class. These scores were also used to determine how well a school is doing at teaching. If the poor black student did as well as the white student, the difference between his score and his effectiveness index residual would be larger than the white student’s, and so the school would be rewarded for overcoming the “risk factors” of being poor and black and managing to instruct him anyway. Wake county is currently doing away with the effectiveness index, replacing it with EVAAS, a system which takes into account nothing but test scores. Source: http://content.news14.com/pdf/sas_report.pdf
Can you point me to a federal settlement forced on a school that suspends or expels minorities at a higher rate? I ask because in all of the school districts I have worked with, the schools did suspend minorities at a higher rate, and I have yet to see any consequences for this.
This, as well, I would like to see a citation for.
The school districts I have worked with have varied from being 90% black to 3% black. You are right in that I should have said “minority” rather than “black”, for hispanics, native americans, and other minorities are at a similar disadvantage. However, I’ve seen enough districts in enough states that I, at least, believe the traits I ascribed to the education system to be nearly universal.
Do you have citeable evidence that principals are facing lawsuits for using ‘teacher recommendations’ to either assign students to limited slots, or to discourage students from competing for those slots (e.g. tell students that a teacher recommendation is required, knowing that one group of students will see it as more of a bar to entry than another, resulting in a smaller proportion of that group even competing for the slot).
Because either of those actions are indistinguishable from using race as a factor in determining access to classes.