mr-hire also states simpler ideas worked well for a really long time (though I’m not sure which simpler ideas or what counts as “brute force”.
I’m very much interested in the object level of this post, and want to return to that.
To be more explicit about the levels of development here.
At some point, I was all about pragmatics. Every single thing change I could make that made me more likely to take my endorsed actions and less likely to take my unendorsed actions was used. I had a Pavlok. I used Beeminder. I had blocking software. I used social pressure when it helped and avoided it when it didn’t. I reframed my beliefs to be more powerful. Comfort zone expansion was my default—when something scared me, I felt the fear and did it anyway. I even used techniques that would become central in the next stage of development—looking at beliefs, using introspection, using mindfulness and being in the moment—but the framing of it was all in the idea of a big pragmatic “use the things that make me more likely to take my intended actions.”
At some point, this type of thinking just hit a brick wall. It led me to crashes, where I would follow my endorsed actions for months, and then crash, unable to force myself to go forward even with all of the pragmatic motivation tools I had set up. It also caused me to get myself into trouble one too many times—one too many subconscious Chesterton fences that I ignored in the pursuit of taking the action that was “obviously correct.”
It became clear that there was something being missed in the simple piling on of pragmatic motivational tools. At this point, it became necessary to delve deeper into the relation between subconscious beliefs and actions taken. Introspection became very important. Understanding how tools like mindfulness related to how I oriented to my internal beliefs. Tools like the part’s model became much more useful, and understanding the good that came from situations became important. I started seeing the previous motivational tools as “brute forcing”, trying to go against the grain of the more fundamental influences of beliefs, parts, belief orientations. I used them more sparingly, surgically, here and there as tools to shape beliefs and get things done pragmatically, while being aware of the pitfalls.
Hopefully that gives a bit of more clear picture of where I (and I suspect Gordon) am coming from.
Thanks for the elaboration. Yes, I see what you mean by brute force, and I also see how my post might be read to be advising an approach similar to what you described. I don’t know whether a pragmatic approach like that is a good developmental stage to go through? Maybe for a bit, but I’m not sure.
If the post didn’t shed any light on how a brute force approach is not the only option and not necessarily the best, I think it’s because I forgot that someone might approach motivation in that way. Only reading your description brought it back into my mind.
Go back five to six years I did have a phase when I was very big on “discipline”, I certainly tried to muster willpower to make myself do things—but it was never that successful or systematized. Around the time I did begin making more serious efforts to be productive I was already engaged with CFAR, reading mindingourway.com, and generally being coached into an approach of non-willpower-reliance and non-self-coercion. Yet it must have been long enough ago that I think I’d forgotten that there’s a very a natural approach to motivation where you pile on productivity tricks in a not quite sustainable/healthy way.
So, thanks for pointing that all out. That’s a good reminder.
For the public record, I think ideal motivation is attained when you have something resembling a state of harmony in your mind and with yourself. You might take actions to make actions seem more attractive and/or do things to decrease temptation, but it isn’t coercive or depleting. This is difficult to achieve and requires a lot introspection, self-awareness, resolving inner conflicts, etc., etc. If you’re doing it right, you’re not suffering. You don’t crash. It doesn’t feel like you’re coercing yourself.
It’s possible I should have stated something like that in the post itself.
I still think there’s cruxes there that you’re not seeing. My approach just accentuated the problems of looking at things at the level of a motivation system, they’re still there even if you have the idea of harmony… they stick until you realize that the harmony is the thing, and the motivation system analogy is just crudely approximating that. (of course, I’m sure the harmony is just crudely approximating something even more fundamental). Note that this is the same thing that stuck out to me during your ACT presentation—missing that the harmony was the thing, not the ability to take actions.
I don’t think there’s much much more of a gap that can be bridged here, at least not with my skills. I won’t be replying anymore but I appreciate you engaging :).
I’m very much interested in the object level of this post, and want to return to that.
To be more explicit about the levels of development here.
At some point, I was all about pragmatics. Every single thing change I could make that made me more likely to take my endorsed actions and less likely to take my unendorsed actions was used. I had a Pavlok. I used Beeminder. I had blocking software. I used social pressure when it helped and avoided it when it didn’t. I reframed my beliefs to be more powerful. Comfort zone expansion was my default—when something scared me, I felt the fear and did it anyway. I even used techniques that would become central in the next stage of development—looking at beliefs, using introspection, using mindfulness and being in the moment—but the framing of it was all in the idea of a big pragmatic “use the things that make me more likely to take my intended actions.”
At some point, this type of thinking just hit a brick wall. It led me to crashes, where I would follow my endorsed actions for months, and then crash, unable to force myself to go forward even with all of the pragmatic motivation tools I had set up. It also caused me to get myself into trouble one too many times—one too many subconscious Chesterton fences that I ignored in the pursuit of taking the action that was “obviously correct.”
It became clear that there was something being missed in the simple piling on of pragmatic motivational tools. At this point, it became necessary to delve deeper into the relation between subconscious beliefs and actions taken. Introspection became very important. Understanding how tools like mindfulness related to how I oriented to my internal beliefs. Tools like the part’s model became much more useful, and understanding the good that came from situations became important. I started seeing the previous motivational tools as “brute forcing”, trying to go against the grain of the more fundamental influences of beliefs, parts, belief orientations. I used them more sparingly, surgically, here and there as tools to shape beliefs and get things done pragmatically, while being aware of the pitfalls.
Hopefully that gives a bit of more clear picture of where I (and I suspect Gordon) am coming from.
Edit: This post gives some more explicit pointers towards my current model, although it’s obviously a bit behind: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/mFvuQTzHQiBCDEKw6/a-framework-for-internal-debugging
Thanks for the elaboration. Yes, I see what you mean by brute force, and I also see how my post might be read to be advising an approach similar to what you described. I don’t know whether a pragmatic approach like that is a good developmental stage to go through? Maybe for a bit, but I’m not sure.
If the post didn’t shed any light on how a brute force approach is not the only option and not necessarily the best, I think it’s because I forgot that someone might approach motivation in that way. Only reading your description brought it back into my mind.
Go back five to six years I did have a phase when I was very big on “discipline”, I certainly tried to muster willpower to make myself do things—but it was never that successful or systematized. Around the time I did begin making more serious efforts to be productive I was already engaged with CFAR, reading mindingourway.com, and generally being coached into an approach of non-willpower-reliance and non-self-coercion. Yet it must have been long enough ago that I think I’d forgotten that there’s a very a natural approach to motivation where you pile on productivity tricks in a not quite sustainable/healthy way.
So, thanks for pointing that all out. That’s a good reminder.
For the public record, I think ideal motivation is attained when you have something resembling a state of harmony in your mind and with yourself. You might take actions to make actions seem more attractive and/or do things to decrease temptation, but it isn’t coercive or depleting. This is difficult to achieve and requires a lot introspection, self-awareness, resolving inner conflicts, etc., etc. If you’re doing it right, you’re not suffering. You don’t crash. It doesn’t feel like you’re coercing yourself.
It’s possible I should have stated something like that in the post itself.
I still think there’s cruxes there that you’re not seeing. My approach just accentuated the problems of looking at things at the level of a motivation system, they’re still there even if you have the idea of harmony… they stick until you realize that the harmony is the thing, and the motivation system analogy is just crudely approximating that. (of course, I’m sure the harmony is just crudely approximating something even more fundamental). Note that this is the same thing that stuck out to me during your ACT presentation—missing that the harmony was the thing, not the ability to take actions.
I don’t think there’s much much more of a gap that can be bridged here, at least not with my skills. I won’t be replying anymore but I appreciate you engaging :).
No worries! Maybe we can get to the bottom of it another time, maybe another place. :)