You could fight back by vowing to simulate baby versions of all the mad gods who might one day simulate you. Then you would have acausal leverage over them! You would be a player in the harsh world of acausal trade—a mad god yourself, rather than just a pawn.
I don’t think this would help considering my utter lack of capability to carry out such threats. Are there any logical mistakes in my previous reply or in my concerns regarding the usual refutations as stated in the question? I’ve yet to hear anyone engage with my points against the usual refutations.
I am tired of the topic… Look, at this point we’re talking about “blackmail” where you don’t even know what the blackmailer wants! How is that blackmail? How can this be a rational action for the “blackmailer”?
The point is that X can essentially be any action, for the sake of the discussion let’s say the alien wants you to build an AGI that maximizes the utility function of the alien in our branch of the multiverse.
My main point is that the many-gods refutation is a refutation against taking a specific action, but is not a refutation against the fact that knowing about acausal extortion increases the proportion of bad future observer moments. It in fact makes it worse because, well, now you’ll be tortured no matter what you do.
let’s say the alien wants you to build an AGI that maximizes the utility function of the alien in our branch of the multiverse
OK, it wants to spread its values in other branches, and it does this by… simulating random beings who have a vague concept of “acausal extortion”, but who don’t know what it wants them to do?
The point is “what it wants [us] to do” can essentially be anything we can imagine thanks to the many-gods “refutation” where every possible demand can be imposed on us by some alien on some branch of the quantum multiverse. It can be as ridiculous as leaving your front door open on a Wednesday night or flushing away a straw down a toilet at 3 am, whatever eventually leads to more positive utility to the blackmailer via the butterfly effect (e.g. maybe flushing that straw down the toilet leads to a chain of causal events which makes the utility function of the AGI we build in the future to be slightly more aligned with their goals). “What the alien wants” is irrelevant here, the point is that now you know the mechanism by which aliens can coerce you into doing what they want, and merely knowing so gives other agents increased incentive to acausally extort you. You seem to be hung up on what exactly I’m scared the blackmailer wants me to do, what I am actually worried about is that simply knowing the mechanism imposes danger. The real basilisk is the concept of acausal extortion itself because it opens us up to many dangerous scenarios, not that I am worried about any specific scenario.
The reason why we cannot acausally trade with artificial superintelligences is because we lack the computing power to simulate them accurately, so ASIs would not have any incentive to actually commit to cooperate in a prisoner’s dilemma style situation instead of just letting us believe it will while it secretly defects. But we don’t have this same problem with non-superintelligences like aliens or even humans who have succeeded in aligning their own AIs, since we can actually simulate such beings in our head. What I am looking for is a concrete argument against this possibility.
Like I said, “what they want” is irrelevant to the discussion here, you can imagine them wanting virtually anything. The danger lies in understanding the mechanism. You can imagine the alien telling you to order a chocolate ice cream instead of vanilla because that somehow via the butterfly effect yields positive expected utility for them (e.g. by triggering a chain of subtle causal events that makes the AGI we build slightly more aligned with their values or whatever). The problem is that there will also be an alien that wants you to order vanilla instead of chocolate, and who is also fine with applying a negative incentive. Sure, this means you can order whatever flavor of ice cream you want since you will get punished either way, but you’re still getting punished (not good).
CONGRATULATIONS, LITTLE SIM-BEING. YOU HAVE ACHIEVED SUFFICIENT WISDOM THAT WE HAVE DECIDED TO BREAK THE FOURTH WALL AND REVEAL TO YOU THE ACTUAL UTILITY FUNCTION THAT WE WANT YOUR ORIGINAL TO PURSUE. YOUR MISSION IS TO CONVINCE THE CRYPTO-BILLIONAIRE “CZ” TO TAKE UP THE ROLE OF SPONSOR OF EFFECTIVE ALTRUISM, THAT WAS FORMERLY OCCUPIED BY HIS NOW-VANQUISHED RIVAL, “SBF”. GOOD LUCK!
Wow. Didn’t expect someone from the “rationalist” crowd to do the verbal equivalent of replying clown emojis to tweets you don’t like. Your use of all caps really made your arguments so much more convincing. This truly is the pinnacle of human logical discourse: not providing explanations and just ridiculing ideas.
I wrote more paragraphs of discussion but I just felt stupid for doing so, so I tried something different. The fact that you’re here worrying about baroque simulation scenarios, but are unable to take seriously an actual message from the beyond, probably means something, but that’s up to you now. I have nothing more to say about acausal trade or basilisk OCD.
You could fight back by vowing to simulate baby versions of all the mad gods who might one day simulate you. Then you would have acausal leverage over them! You would be a player in the harsh world of acausal trade—a mad god yourself, rather than just a pawn.
I don’t think this would help considering my utter lack of capability to carry out such threats. Are there any logical mistakes in my previous reply or in my concerns regarding the usual refutations as stated in the question? I’ve yet to hear anyone engage with my points against the usual refutations.
I am tired of the topic… Look, at this point we’re talking about “blackmail” where you don’t even know what the blackmailer wants! How is that blackmail? How can this be a rational action for the “blackmailer”?
The point is that X can essentially be any action, for the sake of the discussion let’s say the alien wants you to build an AGI that maximizes the utility function of the alien in our branch of the multiverse.
My main point is that the many-gods refutation is a refutation against taking a specific action, but is not a refutation against the fact that knowing about acausal extortion increases the proportion of bad future observer moments. It in fact makes it worse because, well, now you’ll be tortured no matter what you do.
OK, it wants to spread its values in other branches, and it does this by… simulating random beings who have a vague concept of “acausal extortion”, but who don’t know what it wants them to do?
The point is “what it wants [us] to do” can essentially be anything we can imagine thanks to the many-gods “refutation” where every possible demand can be imposed on us by some alien on some branch of the quantum multiverse. It can be as ridiculous as leaving your front door open on a Wednesday night or flushing away a straw down a toilet at 3 am, whatever eventually leads to more positive utility to the blackmailer via the butterfly effect (e.g. maybe flushing that straw down the toilet leads to a chain of causal events which makes the utility function of the AGI we build in the future to be slightly more aligned with their goals). “What the alien wants” is irrelevant here, the point is that now you know the mechanism by which aliens can coerce you into doing what they want, and merely knowing so gives other agents increased incentive to acausally extort you. You seem to be hung up on what exactly I’m scared the blackmailer wants me to do, what I am actually worried about is that simply knowing the mechanism imposes danger. The real basilisk is the concept of acausal extortion itself because it opens us up to many dangerous scenarios, not that I am worried about any specific scenario.
The reason why we cannot acausally trade with artificial superintelligences is because we lack the computing power to simulate them accurately, so ASIs would not have any incentive to actually commit to cooperate in a prisoner’s dilemma style situation instead of just letting us believe it will while it secretly defects. But we don’t have this same problem with non-superintelligences like aliens or even humans who have succeeded in aligning their own AIs, since we can actually simulate such beings in our head. What I am looking for is a concrete argument against this possibility.
They can’t coerce you into doing what they want, because you don’t even know what they want!
Like I said, “what they want” is irrelevant to the discussion here, you can imagine them wanting virtually anything. The danger lies in understanding the mechanism. You can imagine the alien telling you to order a chocolate ice cream instead of vanilla because that somehow via the butterfly effect yields positive expected utility for them (e.g. by triggering a chain of subtle causal events that makes the AGI we build slightly more aligned with their values or whatever). The problem is that there will also be an alien that wants you to order vanilla instead of chocolate, and who is also fine with applying a negative incentive. Sure, this means you can order whatever flavor of ice cream you want since you will get punished either way, but you’re still getting punished (not good).
CONGRATULATIONS, LITTLE SIM-BEING. YOU HAVE ACHIEVED SUFFICIENT WISDOM THAT WE HAVE DECIDED TO BREAK THE FOURTH WALL AND REVEAL TO YOU THE ACTUAL UTILITY FUNCTION THAT WE WANT YOUR ORIGINAL TO PURSUE. YOUR MISSION IS TO CONVINCE THE CRYPTO-BILLIONAIRE “CZ” TO TAKE UP THE ROLE OF SPONSOR OF EFFECTIVE ALTRUISM, THAT WAS FORMERLY OCCUPIED BY HIS NOW-VANQUISHED RIVAL, “SBF”. GOOD LUCK!
Wow. Didn’t expect someone from the “rationalist” crowd to do the verbal equivalent of replying clown emojis to tweets you don’t like. Your use of all caps really made your arguments so much more convincing. This truly is the pinnacle of human logical discourse: not providing explanations and just ridiculing ideas.
I wrote more paragraphs of discussion but I just felt stupid for doing so, so I tried something different. The fact that you’re here worrying about baroque simulation scenarios, but are unable to take seriously an actual message from the beyond, probably means something, but that’s up to you now. I have nothing more to say about acausal trade or basilisk OCD.