If Sam and I are engaged in some activity A, and Pat comes along and punishes Sam for A or otherwise interferes with Sam’s ability to engage in A... ...if on reflection I endorse A, then I endorse interfering with Pat and aiding Sam, for several reasons: it results in more A, it keeps me from feeling like a coward and a hypocrite, and I establish myself as a reliable ally. I consider that one of the obligations of social alliance. ...if on reflection I reject A, then I endorse discussing the matter with Sam in private. Ideally we come to agreement on the matter, and either it changes to case 1, or I step up alongside Sam and we take the resulting social status hit of acknowledging our error together. This, too, I consider one of the obligations of social alliance. ...if on reflection I reject A and I can’t come to agreement with Sam, I endorse acknowledging that I’ve unilaterally dissolved the aspect of our social alliance that was mediated by A. (Also, I take that status hit all by myself, but that’s beside the point here.)
I agree with you that if I instead skip the reflective step and reflexively endorse A, that quickly degenerates into pure tribal warfare. But the failure in this case is not in respecting the alliance, it’s failing to reflect on whether I endorse A. If I do neither, then the community doesn’t degenerate into tribal warfare, it degenerates into chaos.
Admittedly, chaos can be more fun, but I don’t really endorse it.
All of that said, I do recognize that explicitly talking about “social alliances” (and, indeed, explicitly talking about social status at all) is a somewhat distracting thing to do, and doesn’t help me make myself understood especially well to most audiences. It was kind of a self-indulgent comment, in retrospect, although an accurate one (IMO).
(I feel vaguely like Will_Newsome, now. I wonder if that’s a good thing.)
I feel vaguely like Will_Newsome, now. I wonder if that’s a good thing.
Start to worry if you begin to feel morally obliged to engage in activity ‘Z’ that neither you, Sam or Pat endorse but which you must support due to acausal social allegiance with Bink mediated by the demon X(A/N)th, who is responsible for UFOs, for the illusion of stars that we see in the sky and also divinely inspired the Bhagavad-Gita.
It wasn’t quite as dramatic as you make it sound, but it was certainly fascinating to live through. The general case is here. The specifics… hm. I remain uncomfortable discussing the specifics in public.
if on reflection I endorse A, then I endorse interfering with Pat and aiding Sam, for several reasons: it results in more A, it keeps me from feeling like a coward and a hypocrite, and I establish myself as a reliable ally. I consider that one of the obligations of social alliance.
Is establishing yourself as a reliable ally an instrumental or terminal goal for you? If the former, what advantages does it bring in a group blog / discussion forum like this one? The kind of alliance you’ve mentioned so far are temporary ones formed implicitly by engaging someone in discussion, but people will discuss things with you if they think your comments are interesting, with virtually no consideration for how reliable you are as an ally. Are you hoping to establish other kinds of alliances here?
Is establishing yourself as a reliable ally an instrumental or terminal goal for you?
Instrumental.
If the former, what advantages does it bring in a group blog / discussion forum like this one?
Trust, mostly. Which is itself an instrumental goal, of course, but the set of advantages that being trusted provides in a discussion is so ramified I don’t know how I could begin to itemize it. To pick one that came up recently, though, here’s a discussion of one of the advantages of trust in a forum like this one, related to trolley problems and similar hypotheticals. Another one that comes up far more often is other people’s willingness to assume, when I say things that have both a sensible and a nonsensical interpretation, that I mean the former.
The kind of alliance you’ve mentioned so far are temporary ones formed implicitly by engaging someone in discussion, but people will discuss things with you if they think your comments are interesting, with virtually no consideration for how reliable you are as an ally.
Yes, I agree that when people form implicit alliances by (for example) engaging someone in discussion, they typically give virtually no explicit consideration for how reliable I am as an ally.
If you mean to say further that it doesn’t affect them at all, I mostly disagree, but I suspect that at this point it might be useful to Taboo “ally.”
People’s estimation of how reliable I am as a person to engage in discussion with, for example, certainly does influence their willingness to engage me in discussion. And vice-versa. There are plenty of people I mostly don’t engage in discussion, because I no longer trust that they will engage reliably.
Are you hoping to establish other kinds of alliances here?
Not that I can think of, but honestly this question bewilders me, so it’s possible that you’re asking about something I’m not even considering. What kind of alliances do you have in mind?
To pick one that came up recently, though, here’s a discussion of one of the advantages of trust in a forum like this one, related to trolley problems and similar hypotheticals.
Another one that comes up far more often is other people’s willingness to assume, when I say things that have both a sensible and a nonsensical interpretation, that I mean the former.
It’s not clear to me that these attributes are strongly (or even positively) correlated with willingness to “stick up” for a conversation partner, since typically this behavioral tendency has more to do with whether a person is socially aggressive or timid. So by doing that, you’re mostly signaling that you’re not timid, with “being a good discussion partner” a much weaker inference, if people think in that direction at all. (This is the impression I have of wedrifid, for example.)
What kind of alliances do you have in mind?
I didn’t have any specific kind of alliances in mind, but just thought the question might be worth asking. Now that I think about it, it might be for example that you’re looking to make real-life friends, or contacts for advancing your career, or hoping to be recruit by SIAI.
It’s not clear to me that these attributes are strongly (or even positively) correlated with willingness to “stick up” for a conversation partner, since typically this behavioral tendency has more to do with whether a person is socially aggressive or timid. So by doing that, you’re mostly signaling that you’re not timid
This model of the world does an injustice to a class of people I hold in high esteem (those who are willing to defend others against certain types of social aggression even at cost to themselves) and doesn’t seem to be a very accurate description of reality. A lot of information—and information I consider important at that—can be gained about a person simply by seeing who they choose to defend in which circumstances. Sure, excessive ‘timidity’ can serve to suppress this kind of behavior and so information can be gleaned about social confidence and assertiveness by seeing how freely they intervene. But to take this to the extreme of saying you are mostly signalling that you’re not timid seems to be a mistake.
In my own experience—from back when I was timid in the extreme—the sort of “sticking up for”, jumping to the defense against (unfair or undesirable) aggression is one thing that could break me out of my shell. To say that my defiance of my nature at that time was really just me being not timid after all would be to make a lie of the battle of rather significant opposing forces within the mind of that former self.
(This is the impression I have of wedrifid, for example.)
Merely that I am bold and that my behavioral tendencies and strategies in this kind of area are just signals of that boldness? Dave’s model seems far more accurate and useful in this case.
Merely that I am bold and that my behavioral tendencies and strategies in this kind of area are just signals of that boldness? Dave’s model seems far more accurate and useful in this case.
I find that my brain doesn’t automatically build detailed models of LW participants, even the most prominent ones like yourself, and I haven’t found a strong reason to do so consciously, using explicit reasoning, except when I engage in discussion with someone, and even then I only try to model the part of their mind most relevant to the discussion at hand.
I realize that I may be engaging in typical mind fallacy in thinking that most other people are probably like me in this regard. If I am, I’d be curious to find out.
Fair enough; it may be that I overestimate the value of what I’m calling trust here.
Just for my own clarity, when you say that what I’m doing is signaling my lack of timidity, are you referring to my actual behavior on this site, or are you referring to the behavior we’ve been discussing on this thread (or are they equivalent)?
I’m not especially looking to make real-life friends, though there are folks here who I wouldn’t mind getting to know in real life. Ditto work contacts. I have no interest in working for SI.
If Sam and I are engaged in some activity A, and Pat comes along and punishes Sam for A or otherwise interferes with Sam’s ability to engage in A... ...if on reflection I endorse A, then I endorse interfering with Pat and aiding Sam, for several reasons: it results in more A, it keeps me from feeling like a coward and a hypocrite, and I establish myself as a reliable ally. I consider that one of the obligations of social alliance. ...if on reflection I reject A, then I endorse discussing the matter with Sam in private. Ideally we come to agreement on the matter, and either it changes to case 1, or I step up alongside Sam and we take the resulting social status hit of acknowledging our error together. This, too, I consider one of the obligations of social alliance. ...if on reflection I reject A and I can’t come to agreement with Sam, I endorse acknowledging that I’ve unilaterally dissolved the aspect of our social alliance that was mediated by A. (Also, I take that status hit all by myself, but that’s beside the point here.)
I really like your illustration here. To the extent that this is what you were trying to convey by “3)” in your analysis of wedrifid’s style then I endorse it. I wouldn’t have used the “alliances” description since that could be interpreted in a far more specific and less desirable way (like how Wei is framing it). But now that you have unpacked your thinking here I’m happy with it as a simple model.
Note that depending on the context there are times where I would approve of various combinations of support or opposition to each of “Sam”, “Pat” and “A”. In particular there are many behaviors “A” that the execution of will immediately place the victim of said behavior into the role of “ally that I am obliged to support”.
Yeah, agreed about the distracting phrasing. I find it’s a useful way for me to think about it, as it brings into sharp relief the associated obligations for mutual support, which I otherwise tend to obfuscate, but talking about it that way tends to evoke social resistance.
Agreed that there are many other scenarios in addition to the three I cite, and the specifics vary; transient alliances in a multi-agent system can get complicated.
Also, if you have an articulable model of how you make those judgments I’d be interested, especially if it uses more socially acceptable language than mine does.
Edit: Also, I’m really curious as to the reasoning of whoever downvoted that. I commit to preserving that person’s anonymity if they PM me about their reasoning.
I’m really curious as to the reasoning of whoever downvoted that.
For what it is worth, sampling over time suggests multiple people—at one point there were multiple upvotes.
I’m somewhat less curious. I just assumed it people from the ‘green’ social alliance acting to oppose the suggestion that people acting out the obligations of social allegiance is a desirable and necessary mechanism by which a community preserves that which is desired and prevents chaos.
If Sam and I are engaged in some activity A, and Pat comes along and punishes Sam for A or otherwise interferes with Sam’s ability to engage in A...
...if on reflection I endorse A, then I endorse interfering with Pat and aiding Sam, for several reasons: it results in more A, it keeps me from feeling like a coward and a hypocrite, and I establish myself as a reliable ally. I consider that one of the obligations of social alliance.
...if on reflection I reject A, then I endorse discussing the matter with Sam in private. Ideally we come to agreement on the matter, and either it changes to case 1, or I step up alongside Sam and we take the resulting social status hit of acknowledging our error together. This, too, I consider one of the obligations of social alliance.
...if on reflection I reject A and I can’t come to agreement with Sam, I endorse acknowledging that I’ve unilaterally dissolved the aspect of our social alliance that was mediated by A. (Also, I take that status hit all by myself, but that’s beside the point here.)
I agree with you that if I instead skip the reflective step and reflexively endorse A, that quickly degenerates into pure tribal warfare. But the failure in this case is not in respecting the alliance, it’s failing to reflect on whether I endorse A. If I do neither, then the community doesn’t degenerate into tribal warfare, it degenerates into chaos.
Admittedly, chaos can be more fun, but I don’t really endorse it.
All of that said, I do recognize that explicitly talking about “social alliances” (and, indeed, explicitly talking about social status at all) is a somewhat distracting thing to do, and doesn’t help me make myself understood especially well to most audiences. It was kind of a self-indulgent comment, in retrospect, although an accurate one (IMO).
(I feel vaguely like Will_Newsome, now. I wonder if that’s a good thing.)
Start to worry if you begin to feel morally obliged to engage in activity ‘Z’ that neither you, Sam or Pat endorse but which you must support due to acausal social allegiance with Bink mediated by the demon X(A/N)th, who is responsible for UFOs, for the illusion of stars that we see in the sky and also divinely inspired the Bhagavad-Gita.
Been there, done that. (Not specifically. It would be creepy if you’d gotten the specifics right.)
I blame the stroke, though.
Battling your way to sanity against corrupted hardware has the potential makings of a fascinating story.
It wasn’t quite as dramatic as you make it sound, but it was certainly fascinating to live through.
The general case is here.
The specifics… hm.
I remain uncomfortable discussing the specifics in public.
Is establishing yourself as a reliable ally an instrumental or terminal goal for you? If the former, what advantages does it bring in a group blog / discussion forum like this one? The kind of alliance you’ve mentioned so far are temporary ones formed implicitly by engaging someone in discussion, but people will discuss things with you if they think your comments are interesting, with virtually no consideration for how reliable you are as an ally. Are you hoping to establish other kinds of alliances here?
Instrumental.
Trust, mostly. Which is itself an instrumental goal, of course, but the set of advantages that being trusted provides in a discussion is so ramified I don’t know how I could begin to itemize it.
To pick one that came up recently, though, here’s a discussion of one of the advantages of trust in a forum like this one, related to trolley problems and similar hypotheticals.
Another one that comes up far more often is other people’s willingness to assume, when I say things that have both a sensible and a nonsensical interpretation, that I mean the former.
Yes, I agree that when people form implicit alliances by (for example) engaging someone in discussion, they typically give virtually no explicit consideration for how reliable I am as an ally.
If you mean to say further that it doesn’t affect them at all, I mostly disagree, but I suspect that at this point it might be useful to Taboo “ally.”
People’s estimation of how reliable I am as a person to engage in discussion with, for example, certainly does influence their willingness to engage me in discussion. And vice-versa. There are plenty of people I mostly don’t engage in discussion, because I no longer trust that they will engage reliably.
Not that I can think of, but honestly this question bewilders me, so it’s possible that you’re asking about something I’m not even considering. What kind of alliances do you have in mind?
It’s not clear to me that these attributes are strongly (or even positively) correlated with willingness to “stick up” for a conversation partner, since typically this behavioral tendency has more to do with whether a person is socially aggressive or timid. So by doing that, you’re mostly signaling that you’re not timid, with “being a good discussion partner” a much weaker inference, if people think in that direction at all. (This is the impression I have of wedrifid, for example.)
I didn’t have any specific kind of alliances in mind, but just thought the question might be worth asking. Now that I think about it, it might be for example that you’re looking to make real-life friends, or contacts for advancing your career, or hoping to be recruit by SIAI.
This model of the world does an injustice to a class of people I hold in high esteem (those who are willing to defend others against certain types of social aggression even at cost to themselves) and doesn’t seem to be a very accurate description of reality. A lot of information—and information I consider important at that—can be gained about a person simply by seeing who they choose to defend in which circumstances. Sure, excessive ‘timidity’ can serve to suppress this kind of behavior and so information can be gleaned about social confidence and assertiveness by seeing how freely they intervene. But to take this to the extreme of saying you are mostly signalling that you’re not timid seems to be a mistake.
In my own experience—from back when I was timid in the extreme—the sort of “sticking up for”, jumping to the defense against (unfair or undesirable) aggression is one thing that could break me out of my shell. To say that my defiance of my nature at that time was really just me being not timid after all would be to make a lie of the battle of rather significant opposing forces within the mind of that former self.
Merely that I am bold and that my behavioral tendencies and strategies in this kind of area are just signals of that boldness? Dave’s model seems far more accurate and useful in this case.
I find that my brain doesn’t automatically build detailed models of LW participants, even the most prominent ones like yourself, and I haven’t found a strong reason to do so consciously, using explicit reasoning, except when I engage in discussion with someone, and even then I only try to model the part of their mind most relevant to the discussion at hand.
I realize that I may be engaging in typical mind fallacy in thinking that most other people are probably like me in this regard. If I am, I’d be curious to find out.
Fair enough; it may be that I overestimate the value of what I’m calling trust here.
Just for my own clarity, when you say that what I’m doing is signaling my lack of timidity, are you referring to my actual behavior on this site, or are you referring to the behavior we’ve been discussing on this thread (or are they equivalent)?
I’m not especially looking to make real-life friends, though there are folks here who I wouldn’t mind getting to know in real life. Ditto work contacts. I have no interest in working for SI.
I was talking about the abstract behavior that we were discussing.
I really like your illustration here. To the extent that this is what you were trying to convey by “3)” in your analysis of wedrifid’s style then I endorse it. I wouldn’t have used the “alliances” description since that could be interpreted in a far more specific and less desirable way (like how Wei is framing it). But now that you have unpacked your thinking here I’m happy with it as a simple model.
Note that depending on the context there are times where I would approve of various combinations of support or opposition to each of “Sam”, “Pat” and “A”. In particular there are many behaviors “A” that the execution of will immediately place the victim of said behavior into the role of “ally that I am obliged to support”.
Yeah, agreed about the distracting phrasing. I find it’s a useful way for me to think about it, as it brings into sharp relief the associated obligations for mutual support, which I otherwise tend to obfuscate, but talking about it that way tends to evoke social resistance.
Agreed that there are many other scenarios in addition to the three I cite, and the specifics vary; transient alliances in a multi-agent system can get complicated.
Also, if you have an articulable model of how you make those judgments I’d be interested, especially if it uses more socially acceptable language than mine does.
Edit: Also, I’m really curious as to the reasoning of whoever downvoted that. I commit to preserving that person’s anonymity if they PM me about their reasoning.
For what it is worth, sampling over time suggests multiple people—at one point there were multiple upvotes.
I’m somewhat less curious. I just assumed it people from the ‘green’ social alliance acting to oppose the suggestion that people acting out the obligations of social allegiance is a desirable and necessary mechanism by which a community preserves that which is desired and prevents chaos.