This doesn’t mean that there are ‘individual atoms’, but it doesn’t negate it either.
No IndividualParticles. The fact that measurements of their mass/charge/etc have always come out the same, is not the only evidence we have for all particles of a given type being identical.
(A whole oxygen atom is a bad example, though. Atoms have degrees of freedom beyond the types of particles they’re made of.)
yes, I had that specific post in mind when I presented the atom example. you’re correct here though, I should have said particles,I shouldn’t write so late after midnight I guess..
now I admit that my understanding of quantum mechanics is not that much above a lay persons’, so maybe I just need to apply myslef more and It’ll click, but let’s consider my arguement first:-
here’s what EY said in reply to a post in that thread-emphasis mine:
“There can be properties of the particles we don’t know about yet, but our existing experiments already show those new properties are also identical, unless the observed universe is a lie.”
and then:
“Undiscovering this would be like undiscovering that atoms were made out of nucleons and electrons.
It’s in this sense that I say that the observed universe would have to be a lie.”
here I believe he’s making a mistake/displaying a bias; the math-of Quantum Mechanics in this particular instance- does not determine physical reality, rather it describes it to some degree or other.
to suggest that the mathematics of quantum mechanics is the end of the road is too strong a claim IMO.
I don’t have any arguments that weren’t discussed in that post; so far as I can tell, it already adequately addressed your objection:
QM doesn’t have to be the end of the road. If QM is a good approximation of reality on the scales it claims to predict in the situations we have already tested it in—if the math of QM does describe reality to some degree or other—then that’s enough for the quantum tests of particle identity to work exactly.
to put it mildly I don’t believe anyone can address that objection satisfactorily, as wedrifid put it eloquently, the math is part of the map, not territory.
if the math of QM does describe reality to some degree or other—then that’s >enough for the quantum tests of particle identity to work exactly.
agreed, that was partially my point a couple of posts ago. for practical reasons it’s good enough that the math works to a degree.
No Individual Particles. The fact that measurements of their mass/charge/etc have always come out the same, is not the only evidence we have for all particles of a given type being identical.
(A whole oxygen atom is a bad example, though. Atoms have degrees of freedom beyond the types of particles they’re made of.)
yes, I had that specific post in mind when I presented the atom example. you’re correct here though, I should have said particles,I shouldn’t write so late after midnight I guess..
now I admit that my understanding of quantum mechanics is not that much above a lay persons’, so maybe I just need to apply myslef more and It’ll click, but let’s consider my arguement first:- here’s what EY said in reply to a post in that thread-emphasis mine: “There can be properties of the particles we don’t know about yet, but our existing experiments already show those new properties are also identical, unless the observed universe is a lie.”
and then: “Undiscovering this would be like undiscovering that atoms were made out of nucleons and electrons.
It’s in this sense that I say that the observed universe would have to be a lie.”
here I believe he’s making a mistake/displaying a bias; the math-of Quantum Mechanics in this particular instance- does not determine physical reality, rather it describes it to some degree or other.
to suggest that the mathematics of quantum mechanics is the end of the road is too strong a claim IMO.
I don’t have any arguments that weren’t discussed in that post; so far as I can tell, it already adequately addressed your objection:
QM doesn’t have to be the end of the road. If QM is a good approximation of reality on the scales it claims to predict in the situations we have already tested it in—if the math of QM does describe reality to some degree or other—then that’s enough for the quantum tests of particle identity to work exactly.
to put it mildly I don’t believe anyone can address that objection satisfactorily, as wedrifid put it eloquently, the math is part of the map, not territory.
agreed, that was partially my point a couple of posts ago. for practical reasons it’s good enough that the math works to a degree.