This is related to an idea I keep stressing here, which is that people rarely have consistent meta-level principles. Instead, they’ll endorse the meta-level principle that supports their object-level beliefs at any given moment. The example I keep giving is how when the federal government was anti-gay, conservatives talked about the pressing need for federal intervention and liberals insisted on states’ rights; when the federal government became pro-gay, liberals talked about the pressing need for federal intervention and conservatives insisted on states’ rights.
One encounters that kind of thing all the time, e.g. people trying to change the constitution to cause particular object-level changes.
But on the other hand, it feels like a useful political tool: Whoever is willing to sacrifice their object-level goals can achieve their meta-level goals instead. And given that meta-level changes are likely to have more profound long-term impact, it may be worth it.
Elaborating the above example, if you are anti-gay, but pro-state all you have to do is to wait until pro-gay people support strengthening the states at the expense of the federal government. At that point you can join forces with them and give more power to the states. I’ll hurt your object anti-gay agenda, but you achieve your meta-level agenda which will keep paying off in 20 or 50 years when the gay issue is probably no longer salient enough to care.
If you reframe this as instrumental vs terminal goals, it’s obviously true. If you don’t care about the constitution per se, but only as a means to power and to enabling your policies, and your timeframe is much longer than your opposition, then it’s trivially useful to seek power now and use it over the long term.
But it’s not at all clear that these conditions hold for any humans in the real world. We don’t really have values or goals that are all that well-defined, and we like to think we’re more long-term-oriented than our opposition, but we’re mostly fooling ourselves.
I don’t think this works very well. If you wait until a major party sides with your meta, you could be waiting a long time. (EG, when will 321 voting become a talking point on either side of a presidential election?) And, if you get what you were waiting for, you’re definitely not pulling sideways. That is: you’ll have a tough battle to fight, because there will be a big opposition.
Thanks for the link. I’ve noticed the trend of avoiding the salient issues among those who get things actually done, but I haven’t had a name for it. Pulling the rope sideways—nice.
I don’t think this works very well. If you wait until a major party sides with your meta, you could be waiting a long time.
Correct. This could be countered by having multiple plans and waiting for several possible situations/alliances in parallel.
if you get what you were waiting for, you’re definitely not pulling sideways
Why? It’s known that people care a lot about object-level issues and little about meta-level ones (procedural stuff, e.g. constitution). If you get what you want at the meta level, the voters won’t care and politicians thus have little incentive to make it a partisan/salient issue.
Why? It’s known that people care a lot about object-level issues and little about meta-level ones (procedural stuff, e.g. constitution). If you get what you want at the meta level, the voters won’t care and politicians thus have little incentive to make it a partisan/salient issue.
Your example was waiting until states rights aligned with one side or other of gay rights. So I understood that you were recommending a strategy where you wait until your pet meta issue is polarized. If you don’t do that, what is left of the strategy you were suggesting?
Either the partisan politics sees a connection between state rights and gay rights, in which case you get your allies but you also inherit a bunch of enemies; or partisan politics fails to see the connection, in which case you don’t get a bunch of allies and you also don’t get enemies.
(Not directly relevant, but: my model is that partisan politics filters for issues which are polarizing, but of the available parties voters tend to choose the most centrist. To appeal to a party, an issue should strike at the other side, but to appeal to voters, you’re aiming for broad appeal.)
Let’s say you are an opposition politician and your pet constitutional issue is to replace majority voting by proportional voting. You believe that FPTP has some genuinely detrimental consequences for the society and you are such a selfless person that you are willing to push for the change even against your best object level interests.
The party currently in power loves majority voting. They love it, however, on the object level: It gives them far larger representation in the parliament than would otherwise be reasonable. 55% voters vote for them, yet they get 80% of MPs. They don’t care about meta level and are not willing to sacrifice object-level interests for it.
The situation is stable for the time being. There’s no “political will” to enact proportional voting. So you wait.
At some point the voting patterns change and the ruling party suddenly faces defeat in the upcoming elections. Now they would do better with the proportional voting system.
They care only about the object level, that is, winning the election, and proportional voting is as good means to win as is majority voting.
You, on the other hand, care only about the meta level. You may lose the upcoming election if proportional system is adopted, but you think it’s still worth it.
Suddenly the two parties are aligned, each side prefers the proportional system, albeit for different reasons. The proportional voting gets adopted.
--- https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/20/writing-advice/
One encounters that kind of thing all the time, e.g. people trying to change the constitution to cause particular object-level changes.
But on the other hand, it feels like a useful political tool: Whoever is willing to sacrifice their object-level goals can achieve their meta-level goals instead. And given that meta-level changes are likely to have more profound long-term impact, it may be worth it.
Elaborating the above example, if you are anti-gay, but pro-state all you have to do is to wait until pro-gay people support strengthening the states at the expense of the federal government. At that point you can join forces with them and give more power to the states. I’ll hurt your object anti-gay agenda, but you achieve your meta-level agenda which will keep paying off in 20 or 50 years when the gay issue is probably no longer salient enough to care.
If you reframe this as instrumental vs terminal goals, it’s obviously true. If you don’t care about the constitution per se, but only as a means to power and to enabling your policies, and your timeframe is much longer than your opposition, then it’s trivially useful to seek power now and use it over the long term.
But it’s not at all clear that these conditions hold for any humans in the real world. We don’t really have values or goals that are all that well-defined, and we like to think we’re more long-term-oriented than our opposition, but we’re mostly fooling ourselves.
I don’t think this works very well. If you wait until a major party sides with your meta, you could be waiting a long time. (EG, when will 321 voting become a talking point on either side of a presidential election?) And, if you get what you were waiting for, you’re definitely not pulling sideways. That is: you’ll have a tough battle to fight, because there will be a big opposition.
Thanks for the link. I’ve noticed the trend of avoiding the salient issues among those who get things actually done, but I haven’t had a name for it. Pulling the rope sideways—nice.
Correct. This could be countered by having multiple plans and waiting for several possible situations/alliances in parallel.
Why? It’s known that people care a lot about object-level issues and little about meta-level ones (procedural stuff, e.g. constitution). If you get what you want at the meta level, the voters won’t care and politicians thus have little incentive to make it a partisan/salient issue.
Your example was waiting until states rights aligned with one side or other of gay rights. So I understood that you were recommending a strategy where you wait until your pet meta issue is polarized. If you don’t do that, what is left of the strategy you were suggesting?
Either the partisan politics sees a connection between state rights and gay rights, in which case you get your allies but you also inherit a bunch of enemies; or partisan politics fails to see the connection, in which case you don’t get a bunch of allies and you also don’t get enemies.
(Not directly relevant, but: my model is that partisan politics filters for issues which are polarizing, but of the available parties voters tend to choose the most centrist. To appeal to a party, an issue should strike at the other side, but to appeal to voters, you’re aiming for broad appeal.)
Let me try a different example:
Let’s say you are an opposition politician and your pet constitutional issue is to replace majority voting by proportional voting. You believe that FPTP has some genuinely detrimental consequences for the society and you are such a selfless person that you are willing to push for the change even against your best object level interests.
The party currently in power loves majority voting. They love it, however, on the object level: It gives them far larger representation in the parliament than would otherwise be reasonable. 55% voters vote for them, yet they get 80% of MPs. They don’t care about meta level and are not willing to sacrifice object-level interests for it.
The situation is stable for the time being. There’s no “political will” to enact proportional voting. So you wait.
At some point the voting patterns change and the ruling party suddenly faces defeat in the upcoming elections. Now they would do better with the proportional voting system.
They care only about the object level, that is, winning the election, and proportional voting is as good means to win as is majority voting.
You, on the other hand, care only about the meta level. You may lose the upcoming election if proportional system is adopted, but you think it’s still worth it.
Suddenly the two parties are aligned, each side prefers the proportional system, albeit for different reasons. The proportional voting gets adopted.