I’m probably in some top 25 posters by karma, but I tend to feel like an outsider here a lot.
My own situation is not so different although
(a) I have lower karma than you and
(b) There are some LW posters with whom I feel strong affinity
By the way, is there any reason for me to write articles expanding my points, or not really?
I myself am curious and would read what you had to say with interest and this is a weak indication that others would but of course it’s for you to say whether it would be worth the opportunity cost. Probably the community would be more receptive to such pieces if they were cautious & carefully argued than if not; but this takes still more time and effort.
You get karma mostly for contributing more, not by higher quality. Posts and comments both have positive expected karma.
Also you get more karma for more alignment with groupthink. I even recall how in early days of lesswrong I stated based on very solid outside view evidence (from every single subreddit I’ve been to) that karma and reception will come to correlate with not only quality but also alignment with groupthink—that on reddit-style karma system downvoting-as-disagreement / upvoting-as-agreement becomes very significant at some point. People disagreed, but the outside view prevailed.
This unfortunately means that one needs to put a lot more effort into writing something that disagrees with groupthink than something that agrees with it—and such trivial inconveniences matter.
(b) There are some LW posters with whom I feel strong affinity
I don’t think I feel particular “affinity” with anyone here, but I find many posters highly enjoyable to read and/or having a lot of insightful ideas.
I mostly write when I disagree with someone, so for a change (I don’t hate everyone all the time, honestly :-p) here are two among the best writings by lesswrong posters I’ve ever read:
Twilight fanfiction by Alicorn—it is ridiculously good, I guess a lot of people will avoid it because it’s Twilight, but it would be a horrible mistake.
I think it’s a plus point that a contrarian comment will get upvotes for effort and showing its work (links, etc) - that is, the moderation method still seems to be “More like this please” than “Like”. Being right and obnoxious gets downvotes.
(I think “Vote up” and “Vote down” might be profitably be replaced with “More like this” and “Less like this”, but I don’t think that’s needed now and I doubt it’d work if it was needed.)
More like this/Less like this makes sense for top posts, but is it helpful for comments?
It’s ok to keep an imperfect system—LW is nowhere near groupthink levels of subreddits or slashdot.
However—it seems to me that stealing HackerNews / Stackoverflow model of removing normal downvote, and keeping only upvote for comments (and report for spam/abuse, or possibly some highly restricted downvote for special situations only; or one which would count for a lot less than upvote) would reduce groupthink a lot, while keeping all major benefits of current system.
Other than “not fixing what ain’t broken”, are there any good reasons to keep downvote for comments? Low quality non-abusive coments will sink to the bottom just because of not getting upvotes, later reinforced by most people reading from highest rated first.
Disclaimers:
I’m obviously biased as a contrarian, and as someone who really likes reading a variety of contrarian opinions. I rarely bother posting comments saying that I totally agree with something. I occasionally send a private message with thanks when I read something particularly great, but I don’t recall ever doing it here yet, even though a lot of posts were that kind of great.
And I fully admit that on several occasions I downvoted a good comment just because I though one below it was far better and deserving a lot of extra promotion. I always felt like I’m abusing the system this way. Is this common?
You get karma mostly for contributing more, not by higher quality. Posts and comments both have positive expected karma.
Yes, I’ve noticed this; it seems like there’s a danger of there being an illusion that one is that one is actually getting something done by posting or commenting on LW on account of collecting karma by default.
On the upside I think that the net value of LW is positive so that (taking the outside view; ignoring the quality of particular posts/comments which is highly variable), the expected value of posts and comments is positive though probably less than one subjectively feels.
Also you get more karma for more alignment with groupthink [...]
Yes; I’ve noticed this too. A few months ago I came across Robin Hanson’s Most Rationalists Are Elsewhere which is in similar spirit.
This unfortunately means that one needs to put a lot more effort into writing something that disagrees with groupthink than something that agrees with it—and such trivial inconveniences matter.
Agree here. In defense of LW I would say that this seems like a pretty generic feature across groups in general. I myself try to be careful about interpreting statements made by those with views that clash with my own charitably but don’t know how well I succeed.
I mostly write when I disagree with someone, so for a change (I don’t hate everyone all the time, honestly :-p)
Good to know :-)
Twilight fanfiction by Alicorn—it is ridiculously good, I guess a lot of people will avoid it because it’s Twilight, but it would be a horrible mistake.
Fascinating; I had avoided it for this very reason but will plan on checking it out.
Agree here. In defense of LW I would say that this seems like a pretty generic feature across groups in general. I myself try to be careful about interpreting statements made by those with views that clash with my own charitably but don’t know how well I succeed.
I don’t consider LW particularly bad—it seems considerably saner than a typical internet forum of similar size. Level of drama seems a lot lower than is typical. Is my impression right that most of drama we get centers about obscure FAI stuff? I tend to ignore these posts unless I feel really bored. I’ve seen some drama about gender and politics, but honestly a lot less that these subject normally attract on other similar places.
I don’t consider LW particularly bad—it seems considerably saner than a typical internet forum of similar size.
I have a similar impression.
LW was the first internet forum that I had serious exposure to. I initially thought that I had stumbled onto a very bizarre cult. I complained about this to various friends and they said “no, no, the whole internet is like this!” After hearing this from enough people and perusing the internet some more I realized that they were right. Further contemplation and experience made me realize that it wasn’t only people on the internet who exhibit high levels of group think & strong ideological agendas; rather this is very common among humans in general! Real life interactions mask over the effects of group think & ideological agendas. I was then amazed at how oblivious I had been up until I learned about these things. All of this has been a cathartic and life-changing.
Is my impression right that most of drama we get centers about obscure FAI stuff?
Not sure, I don’t really pay enough attention. As a rule, I avoid drama in general on account of lack of interest in the arguments being made on either side. The things that I’ve noticed most are those connected with gender wars and with Roko’s post being banned. Then of course there were my own controversial posts back in August.
I’ve seen some drama about gender and politics, but honestly a lot less that these subject normally attract on other similar places.
The things that I’ve noticed most are those connected with gender wars and with Roko being banned
In the interest of avoiding the spread of false ideas, it should be pointed out that Roko was not banned; rather his post was “banned” (jargon for actually deleted, as opposed to “deleted”, which merely means removed from the various “feeds” (“New”, the user’s overview, etc)). Roko himself then proceded to delete (in the ordinary way) all his other posts and comments.
My own situation is not so different although
(a) I have lower karma than you and
(b) There are some LW posters with whom I feel strong affinity
I myself am curious and would read what you had to say with interest and this is a weak indication that others would but of course it’s for you to say whether it would be worth the opportunity cost. Probably the community would be more receptive to such pieces if they were cautious & carefully argued than if not; but this takes still more time and effort.
You get karma mostly for contributing more, not by higher quality. Posts and comments both have positive expected karma.
Also you get more karma for more alignment with groupthink. I even recall how in early days of lesswrong I stated based on very solid outside view evidence (from every single subreddit I’ve been to) that karma and reception will come to correlate with not only quality but also alignment with groupthink—that on reddit-style karma system downvoting-as-disagreement / upvoting-as-agreement becomes very significant at some point. People disagreed, but the outside view prevailed.
This unfortunately means that one needs to put a lot more effort into writing something that disagrees with groupthink than something that agrees with it—and such trivial inconveniences matter.
I don’t think I feel particular “affinity” with anyone here, but I find many posters highly enjoyable to read and/or having a lot of insightful ideas.
I mostly write when I disagree with someone, so for a change (I don’t hate everyone all the time, honestly :-p) here are two among the best writings by lesswrong posters I’ve ever read:
Twilight fanfiction by Alicorn—it is ridiculously good, I guess a lot of people will avoid it because it’s Twilight, but it would be a horrible mistake.
Contrarian excuses by Robin Hanson—are you able to admit this about your own views?
I think it’s a plus point that a contrarian comment will get upvotes for effort and showing its work (links, etc) - that is, the moderation method still seems to be “More like this please” than “Like”. Being right and obnoxious gets downvotes.
(I think “Vote up” and “Vote down” might be profitably be replaced with “More like this” and “Less like this”, but I don’t think that’s needed now and I doubt it’d work if it was needed.)
More like this/Less like this makes sense for top posts, but is it helpful for comments?
It’s ok to keep an imperfect system—LW is nowhere near groupthink levels of subreddits or slashdot.
However—it seems to me that stealing HackerNews / Stackoverflow model of removing normal downvote, and keeping only upvote for comments (and report for spam/abuse, or possibly some highly restricted downvote for special situations only; or one which would count for a lot less than upvote) would reduce groupthink a lot, while keeping all major benefits of current system.
Other than “not fixing what ain’t broken”, are there any good reasons to keep downvote for comments? Low quality non-abusive coments will sink to the bottom just because of not getting upvotes, later reinforced by most people reading from highest rated first.
Disclaimers:
I’m obviously biased as a contrarian, and as someone who really likes reading a variety of contrarian opinions. I rarely bother posting comments saying that I totally agree with something. I occasionally send a private message with thanks when I read something particularly great, but I don’t recall ever doing it here yet, even though a lot of posts were that kind of great.
And I fully admit that on several occasions I downvoted a good comment just because I though one below it was far better and deserving a lot of extra promotion. I always felt like I’m abusing the system this way. Is this common?
Yes, I’ve noticed this; it seems like there’s a danger of there being an illusion that one is that one is actually getting something done by posting or commenting on LW on account of collecting karma by default.
On the upside I think that the net value of LW is positive so that (taking the outside view; ignoring the quality of particular posts/comments which is highly variable), the expected value of posts and comments is positive though probably less than one subjectively feels.
Yes; I’ve noticed this too. A few months ago I came across Robin Hanson’s Most Rationalists Are Elsewhere which is in similar spirit.
Agree here. In defense of LW I would say that this seems like a pretty generic feature across groups in general. I myself try to be careful about interpreting statements made by those with views that clash with my own charitably but don’t know how well I succeed.
Good to know :-)
Fascinating; I had avoided it for this very reason but will plan on checking it out.
Great article! I hadn’t seen it before.
I don’t consider LW particularly bad—it seems considerably saner than a typical internet forum of similar size. Level of drama seems a lot lower than is typical. Is my impression right that most of drama we get centers about obscure FAI stuff? I tend to ignore these posts unless I feel really bored. I’ve seen some drama about gender and politics, but honestly a lot less that these subject normally attract on other similar places.
I have a similar impression.
LW was the first internet forum that I had serious exposure to. I initially thought that I had stumbled onto a very bizarre cult. I complained about this to various friends and they said “no, no, the whole internet is like this!” After hearing this from enough people and perusing the internet some more I realized that they were right. Further contemplation and experience made me realize that it wasn’t only people on the internet who exhibit high levels of group think & strong ideological agendas; rather this is very common among humans in general! Real life interactions mask over the effects of group think & ideological agendas. I was then amazed at how oblivious I had been up until I learned about these things. All of this has been a cathartic and life-changing.
Not sure, I don’t really pay enough attention. As a rule, I avoid drama in general on account of lack of interest in the arguments being made on either side. The things that I’ve noticed most are those connected with gender wars and with Roko’s post being banned. Then of course there were my own controversial posts back in August.
Sounds about right.
In the interest of avoiding the spread of false ideas, it should be pointed out that Roko was not banned; rather his post was “banned” (jargon for actually deleted, as opposed to “deleted”, which merely means removed from the various “feeds” (“New”, the user’s overview, etc)). Roko himself then proceded to delete (in the ordinary way) all his other posts and comments.
Good point; taw and I both know this but others may not; grandparent corrected accordingly.
Thank you! :D