I have no such skill; I simply spend 2% more effort than than the median mouth-breather.
There was an article here about how people overestimate the difficulty of finding a creative middle way between two controversial options, while in reality, it’s simple: you just:
1) Look for better options. 2) When you find a superior option, go with it.
These are easy steps, yet people rarely do both. (If someone knows what article I’m talking about, please link it.)
I think something similar is going on here: my “secret” to the ease you see in my verbal logic is this:
1) Look for the inferential gap between you and the other person. 2) When you find it, trace it out.
The only difficulty in applying this method (once aware of it at least) is getting over one’s fear of losing a monopoly on knowledge.
I think you underestimate how hard it is to apply a little more effort in a realm where the objects of manipulation all seem vague.
What I had in mind was that you’re written about the difficulties you’ve had with social skills, to point where you’ve assumed that people were deliberately giving you unfollowable advice.
I suggest that most people have as much difficulty getting started on logic as you have (had?) with social skills.
In that case, like with the relative ease I have explaining other topics, the problem is that people cannot articulate the insight that will resolve the confusion. In the social skills issue, they either assumed or were unaware of pre-requisites. And even when they were aware of the pre-requisites, they didn’t know how you’d go about satisfying them. (Remember Alicorn’s infamous advice to “just do internet dating!” and “just sample the 1000s of women your friends can favorably introduce you to!”?)
Either way, the problem could be solved with just a little effort. Once I achieve a skill or ability (including social ones), I’m always able to bring others up to my level by articulating the inferential path therebetween. Yet others cannot do the same for me. Why? Do I really have abnormal skill, or do I just take a few easy steps that others haven’t?
Coincidentally, there was a great example of laziness destroying explanatory ability, with the lazy person perfectly fine with that result. On the OB blog, a poster named mtraven “tried” to justify why regulations apply in one case but not another, but gave a woefully inadequate explanation. Another poster and I tried to get him to give a more helpful explanation by saying what other criteria he needed to satisfy.
What’s especially interesting is how, in attempting to demonstrate how impossibly difficulty the task of articulating the relevant difference is, he compared it to how “hard” it is to sufficiently explain why prisons are locked while schools are not.
But … that’s easy to explain, and I showed him how. The fact that he sees both as hard tells more about his own effort than about inherent explanatory difficulty.
(Note: that exchange was also a test of whether people can be persuaded to play fair in debate if you can just be nice to them. In that exchange, Tyrrell was “good cop” to my “bad cop”, being far more polite and deferential in making the same criticisms I did. Did that do anything to perusade mtraven to unlock his monopoly on the knowledge he claimed to have? No.)
If what you can do were common, do you think LW would need so much rationality 101 material?
Possible test: find a person who doesn’t seem to be making obvious inferences. Teach them how to do so. Ask them how their thinking has changed.
If you do teach them, my bet is that their answer will be at least as much about having efficient methods of knowing what to pay attention to as it is about putting in more effort.
If you don’t succeed at teaching them, it might suggest that you have a non-obvious skill.
Why did you decide that laziness is a more plausible explanation than you having an unusual talent?
Part of attributing laziness is assuming that you know how much effort an action requires for a particular person. Is it plausible that actions take about the same amount of effort the vast majority of people?
That’s a good idea, and my article about how to “Explain Yourself!” has been in development hell way too long now. (I recently thought of doing a “Summary Execution” article, about how to summarize an article or another’s ideas, which is also a sorely lacking skill I see in others, and equally frustrating to me.) So I guess there’s laziness on my part, but not in my explanations when I do give them.
If what you can do were common, do you think LW would need so much rationality 101 material?
That’s not teaching quite the same thing (except of course, articles that tackle it directly like “Expecting Short Inferential Distance”—which partly disagrees with me on this anyway—and “Double Illusion of Transparency”). They talk about how to think correctly in general and how to avoid bias, not specifically how to explain.
Also, do you think mtraven is abnormally bad at whatever skillset you claim I’m good at? (I call the skill “explaining”, and I think you’re calling the same thing “verbal logic”.) I mean, how hard did you have to look to find an articulable reason why prisons but not schools are locked? [1]
People don’t honestly get stumped on that one, do they?
Alternatively, the issue may be one of understanding: I have abnormally high standards for what counts as “understanding” and only purport to be an expert (and therefore offer to explain something) when I’ve reached Level 2 in my hierarchy. Perhaps people think they’re qualified to explain when their understanding is actually much more shallow.
[1] I avoid mentioning, of course, that some schools do lock their kids in, but we can confine the question to the canonical case.
I think you’re overestimating how clear-headed most people are about verbal logic—a subject that’s easy for you.
I have no such skill; I simply spend 2% more effort than than the median mouth-breather.
There was an article here about how people overestimate the difficulty of finding a creative middle way between two controversial options, while in reality, it’s simple: you just:
1) Look for better options.
2) When you find a superior option, go with it.
These are easy steps, yet people rarely do both. (If someone knows what article I’m talking about, please link it.)
I think something similar is going on here: my “secret” to the ease you see in my verbal logic is this:
1) Look for the inferential gap between you and the other person.
2) When you find it, trace it out.
The only difficulty in applying this method (once aware of it at least) is getting over one’s fear of losing a monopoly on knowledge.
I think you underestimate how hard it is to apply a little more effort in a realm where the objects of manipulation all seem vague.
What I had in mind was that you’re written about the difficulties you’ve had with social skills, to point where you’ve assumed that people were deliberately giving you unfollowable advice.
I suggest that most people have as much difficulty getting started on logic as you have (had?) with social skills.
In that case, like with the relative ease I have explaining other topics, the problem is that people cannot articulate the insight that will resolve the confusion. In the social skills issue, they either assumed or were unaware of pre-requisites. And even when they were aware of the pre-requisites, they didn’t know how you’d go about satisfying them. (Remember Alicorn’s infamous advice to “just do internet dating!” and “just sample the 1000s of women your friends can favorably introduce you to!”?)
Either way, the problem could be solved with just a little effort. Once I achieve a skill or ability (including social ones), I’m always able to bring others up to my level by articulating the inferential path therebetween. Yet others cannot do the same for me. Why? Do I really have abnormal skill, or do I just take a few easy steps that others haven’t?
Coincidentally, there was a great example of laziness destroying explanatory ability, with the lazy person perfectly fine with that result. On the OB blog, a poster named mtraven “tried” to justify why regulations apply in one case but not another, but gave a woefully inadequate explanation. Another poster and I tried to get him to give a more helpful explanation by saying what other criteria he needed to satisfy.
What’s especially interesting is how, in attempting to demonstrate how impossibly difficulty the task of articulating the relevant difference is, he compared it to how “hard” it is to sufficiently explain why prisons are locked while schools are not.
But … that’s easy to explain, and I showed him how. The fact that he sees both as hard tells more about his own effort than about inherent explanatory difficulty.
(Note: that exchange was also a test of whether people can be persuaded to play fair in debate if you can just be nice to them. In that exchange, Tyrrell was “good cop” to my “bad cop”, being far more polite and deferential in making the same criticisms I did. Did that do anything to perusade mtraven to unlock his monopoly on the knowledge he claimed to have? No.)
I think you have an unusual skill.
If what you can do were common, do you think LW would need so much rationality 101 material?
Possible test: find a person who doesn’t seem to be making obvious inferences. Teach them how to do so. Ask them how their thinking has changed.
If you do teach them, my bet is that their answer will be at least as much about having efficient methods of knowing what to pay attention to as it is about putting in more effort.
If you don’t succeed at teaching them, it might suggest that you have a non-obvious skill.
Why did you decide that laziness is a more plausible explanation than you having an unusual talent?
Part of attributing laziness is assuming that you know how much effort an action requires for a particular person. Is it plausible that actions take about the same amount of effort the vast majority of people?
That’s a good idea, and my article about how to “Explain Yourself!” has been in development hell way too long now. (I recently thought of doing a “Summary Execution” article, about how to summarize an article or another’s ideas, which is also a sorely lacking skill I see in others, and equally frustrating to me.) So I guess there’s laziness on my part, but not in my explanations when I do give them.
That’s not teaching quite the same thing (except of course, articles that tackle it directly like “Expecting Short Inferential Distance”—which partly disagrees with me on this anyway—and “Double Illusion of Transparency”). They talk about how to think correctly in general and how to avoid bias, not specifically how to explain.
Also, do you think mtraven is abnormally bad at whatever skillset you claim I’m good at? (I call the skill “explaining”, and I think you’re calling the same thing “verbal logic”.) I mean, how hard did you have to look to find an articulable reason why prisons but not schools are locked? [1]
People don’t honestly get stumped on that one, do they?
Alternatively, the issue may be one of understanding: I have abnormally high standards for what counts as “understanding” and only purport to be an expert (and therefore offer to explain something) when I’ve reached Level 2 in my hierarchy. Perhaps people think they’re qualified to explain when their understanding is actually much more shallow.
[1] I avoid mentioning, of course, that some schools do lock their kids in, but we can confine the question to the canonical case.