I’m thinking some especially desperate people may experience a net benefit from radically coercive restrictions on their freedom. I’m talking about the equivalent of at least temporary enslavement.
That seems to be an extreme exaggeration of how low the bar is.
Not “scripture” study. I suggest scripture study is at least a deadweight loss, perhaps worse. I imagine the purpose of scripture study and so forth in the Mormon context is to enforce conformity. I’d suggest this actually harms the Mormons who are the supposed beneficiaries of this education, limiting their freedom and dulling their thinking.
Ok, if we import anything like scripture study into a rationalist community, it will be translated to studying something like probability theory, or decision theory, or applications of such to real life situations. For us, the equivalent will be useful.
The conformity may be necessary to the Mormon model. You filter out the conformity, you filter out the obedience, then the model breaks down.
I seriously doubt that homophobia is necessary to the Mormon model.
The thing is, I want to build effective rationalist communities. Discussion of how the Mormon communities work can generate lots of ideas, lot of things worth trying. That is why I am interested in that continuing discussion, and why I don’t appreciate attempts to dismiss it because it is associated with irrational religion, or because it doesn’t help all members (when it is observable that the community is pretty successful).
That seems to be an extreme exaggeration of how low the bar is.
I’m well aware that there are a lot of people who would choose to be a lot more coercive than me, given half the chance. I’m aware that a lot of people, in a lot of countries have chosen to be rather coercive, for a long, long time. So far, I’m interpreting the available data to suggest that the optimal level of social and governmental coercion is somewhat less than the historical standard, rather than more.
Ok, if we import anything like scripture study into a rationalist community, it will be translated to studying something like probability theory, or decision theory, or applications of such to real life situations. For us, the equivalent will be useful.
And in the utopia that we shall build, the skateboards will be free! Right now, our kind can’t cooperate,. I would agree that the Mormons can cooperate. So can the North Koreans. So can the Scientologists. So can the Objectivists, at least the ones who haven’t been exiled from the community. So, for that matter, could the Soviets, until the collapse of the Soviet system.
Modelling a rational community by the example of a manifestly irrational community like the Mormons seems like an exercise in futility. I suggest that the Mormon model is one of many, many, models that works limiting the freedom and intelligence and rationality of its members. It’s a cult. It’s the dark arts. It’s a lie. When did LessWrong decide that this kind of approach would be the one to pursue?
I think that depends on how one defines homophobia. Given a basic understanding of the LDS view of the purpose of life and what our eventual destiny is then homosexual relations are necessarily contrary to that purpose. That is one of the major goals of life is to form procreative units, male and female, that will endure past death.
The doctrine is not that God hates gays, though He does disapprove of any actions in that regard. However, the doctrine is also that everyone should be free to act according to what they think is right as long as it does not interfere with others ability to also act according to what they think is right. Hence the reason the LDS Church got involved in allowing homosexual rights in Salt Lake City but also are against homosexual marriage.
Colloquially, “homophobia” is used to refer to any attitudes or policies which negatively affect gay people but not straight people. It is an unfortunate term, since the “phobia” part implies fear, but it’s what we have to work with. So, homophobia includes believing that the kind of sex gay people have is immoral, believing that gay people should not be allowed to marry their chosen partners, and generally privileging opposite-sex relationships over same-sex ones in any way, shape, or form. This is regardless of whether these attitudes or policies are motivated by one’s beliefs about God and his preferences or come with a corresponding belief that the disapproved acts should be forcibly prevented. Hate per se is not called for.
Under this particular (and extremely broad) definition of homophobia then homophobia is indeed necessary to the LDS belief structure. However, I do think this definition is overly broad especially given the connotations of homophobia that have been pointed out. Some sort of gradient terms of homophobia would be more useful in my opinion.
That seems to be an extreme exaggeration of how low the bar is.
Ok, if we import anything like scripture study into a rationalist community, it will be translated to studying something like probability theory, or decision theory, or applications of such to real life situations. For us, the equivalent will be useful.
I seriously doubt that homophobia is necessary to the Mormon model.
The thing is, I want to build effective rationalist communities. Discussion of how the Mormon communities work can generate lots of ideas, lot of things worth trying. That is why I am interested in that continuing discussion, and why I don’t appreciate attempts to dismiss it because it is associated with irrational religion, or because it doesn’t help all members (when it is observable that the community is pretty successful).
I’m well aware that there are a lot of people who would choose to be a lot more coercive than me, given half the chance. I’m aware that a lot of people, in a lot of countries have chosen to be rather coercive, for a long, long time. So far, I’m interpreting the available data to suggest that the optimal level of social and governmental coercion is somewhat less than the historical standard, rather than more.
And in the utopia that we shall build, the skateboards will be free! Right now, our kind can’t cooperate,. I would agree that the Mormons can cooperate. So can the North Koreans. So can the Scientologists. So can the Objectivists, at least the ones who haven’t been exiled from the community. So, for that matter, could the Soviets, until the collapse of the Soviet system.
Modelling a rational community by the example of a manifestly irrational community like the Mormons seems like an exercise in futility. I suggest that the Mormon model is one of many, many, models that works limiting the freedom and intelligence and rationality of its members. It’s a cult. It’s the dark arts. It’s a lie. When did LessWrong decide that this kind of approach would be the one to pursue?
I think that depends on how one defines homophobia. Given a basic understanding of the LDS view of the purpose of life and what our eventual destiny is then homosexual relations are necessarily contrary to that purpose. That is one of the major goals of life is to form procreative units, male and female, that will endure past death.
The doctrine is not that God hates gays, though He does disapprove of any actions in that regard. However, the doctrine is also that everyone should be free to act according to what they think is right as long as it does not interfere with others ability to also act according to what they think is right. Hence the reason the LDS Church got involved in allowing homosexual rights in Salt Lake City but also are against homosexual marriage.
Colloquially, “homophobia” is used to refer to any attitudes or policies which negatively affect gay people but not straight people. It is an unfortunate term, since the “phobia” part implies fear, but it’s what we have to work with. So, homophobia includes believing that the kind of sex gay people have is immoral, believing that gay people should not be allowed to marry their chosen partners, and generally privileging opposite-sex relationships over same-sex ones in any way, shape, or form. This is regardless of whether these attitudes or policies are motivated by one’s beliefs about God and his preferences or come with a corresponding belief that the disapproved acts should be forcibly prevented. Hate per se is not called for.
Under this particular (and extremely broad) definition of homophobia then homophobia is indeed necessary to the LDS belief structure. However, I do think this definition is overly broad especially given the connotations of homophobia that have been pointed out. Some sort of gradient terms of homophobia would be more useful in my opinion.
There’s “heteronormativity”.
As given by Wikipedia the term heteronormativity appears to fit nearly perfectly, see The Family: A Proclamation to the World