I think HBD is a fantastic test for true rationality. It’s a rare case where a scientific fact conflicts with deeply ingrained political and cultural values.
Unfortunately it might also be an area where epistemic and instrumental rationality clash. In fact, most of the world does not have freedom of speech in the same way the US does—if one advocated HBD in, say, Germany, could one be thrown in prison in the same way people are imprisoned for saying ‘seig heil’? On reflection, that might be a bad example, because there is a good reason why laws prohibiting Nazism exist in specifically Germany, but laws against racial hatred exist in many other countries too, and I wonder if “I am just pointing out a scientific fact, it doesn’t mean I hate anyone” would be a successful legal defence when the judge and jury are not rationalists.
The people directly killed by bombs are only a tiny fraction of the casualties. Afterwards you have the possibility of nuclear winter, which could radically change the climate for the worse. You have contamination of vast amounts of farmland and food supplies, and the destruction of the global economy. Even countries that weren’t hit directly would be have tons of issues and would probably collapse.
The study I am thinking of did account for this. It is thought that nuclear winter would last 6 months (based on global cooling from very large volcanic eruptions, 3 km^3 of ash cools the planet by 0.5 degrees for 6 months) and in the worst-case scenario this happens at the right time of the year to make the harvests fail. Africa starves and takes high casualties even without being nuked, while Japan raids nearby countries for food. I’m not sure why they singled out Japan for stealing food, maybe they were still angry over WWII or had some other reason to believe that Japan would behave like that.
There have been quite a few airburst nuclear tests, and the background radiation on earth has barely changed. While the half life of uranium is millions or billions of years (depending upon isotope) the products of a nuclear explosion have very short half-lives—the worst would be over within an hour. Not only do we not have enough bombs to contaminate the world, but ground zero would be habitable again after a few months. Hiroshima was rebuilt, not abandoned, after WWII.
Yes, I agree many countries would collaspe, and moreover that the primary combatants quite possibly would take over 90% casualties, the low global rate being largely because many countries emerge unscathed. If there were some reason for most countries to be nuked, and enough bombs to nuke them all, then 90% global casualties is a possiblity, and while I think a nuclear war between allmost all countries is unlikly, its still a lot more likly then 90% of humanity killed by environmental or political collapse.
Sudden changes to the climate are bad. In the past the climate changed very very slowly, so that life had a chance to adapt.
Life is pretty good at surviving. Humans can live in the arctic circle and in tropical rainforest. Hopefully, by this time we would also have better technology to help us.
CO2 is acidifying the oceans and could destroy most of the oceans ecosystems.
This is a little worrying. I thought it was mostly ‘just’ the corral reefs, which, while very pretty, are not vital to everything.
Unfortunately it might also be an area where epistemic and instrumental rationality clash. In fact, most of the world does not have freedom of speech in the same way the US does—if one advocated HBD in, say, Germany, could one be thrown in prison in the same way people are imprisoned for saying ‘seig heil’?
There is a difference between advocating something and merely believing it. But I’m mostly skeptical of the people that put “strongly disagree” on that question. As opposed to “disagree” or “neutral”. The fact that it’s so correlated with political ideology is more evidence that it’s just political bias.
If I lived 200 years ago, I wouldn’t go around advocating atheism. But I might have believed it privately, and I would be more skeptical of the openmindedness of people that say they “strongly oppose the evils of atheism”.
The study I am thinking of did account for this.
I really don’t know. When I researched this it seems like the effects are pretty hard to estimate. Different models give very different results. A recentish study using more modern climate models shows that the effects would be catastrophic and last for multiple years:
the products of a nuclear explosion have very short half-lives—the worst would be over within an hour. Not only do we not have enough bombs to contaminate the world, but ground zero would be habitable again after a few months.
Those first few months are the problem though. The crops and livestock die or absorb the radioactive isotopes. The people too if they don’t happen to have a fallout shelter handy.
Also the nuclear bombs themselves aren’t the only concern. You would have to deal with all the waste left in the cities they destroy. Nuclear power plants would melt down with no one to contain them. Vast amounts of chemical waste would leak from abandoned chemical plants and waste storage. Oil would leak and pollute the oceans with no cleanup.
I don’t know how to estimate the damage of this. But it should be at least a bad or worse than major industrial accidents of the past, like Bhopal, deepwater horizon, or Chernobyl. But all happening at once and with no one left to organize any kind of response.
while I think a nuclear war between allmost all countries is unlikly, its still a lot more likly then 90% of humanity killed by environmental or political collapse.
I think you are underestimating the secondary effects. I imagine a complete destruction of the global economy. There isn’t enough food to go around and lots of countries are starving. This would lead to more war and chaos.
A few thousand years ago the civilizations of the mediterranean all collapsed almost at once. It’s now speculated to be the result of a serious drought and bad weather. The states that couldn’t feed their population got overthrown, and their hungry populations went to war with neighboring countries for food, until nothing of the old orders remained. It was a serious setback for humanity.
If that happened in the modern world, technological civilization might end and never be restarted. The modern world depends on hugely complex infrastructure and tons of different industries and inputs. If we lose that, it would be very difficult to rebuild. We’ve already extracted most of the easy to get to minerals and fossil fuels. Much farmland has been degraded from overuse and depends on inputs of fertilizer, irrigation systems, and of course modern machinery which would be difficult to replace.
There is a difference between advocating something and merely believing it. But I’m mostly skeptical of the people that put “strongly disagree” on that question. As opposed to “disagree” or “neutral”. The fact that it’s so correlated with political ideology is more evidence that it’s just political bias.
This correlation is what interests me—it does fit with political bias, but could it also be that the political views are a product of beliefs in HBD?
I really don’t know. When I researched this it seems like the effects are pretty hard to estimate. Different models give very different results. A recentish study using more modern climate models shows that the effects would be catastrophic and last for multiple years:
I think I might have put too much faith in one study. Perhaps 90% deaths is plausible.
Those first few months are the problem though. The crops and livestock die or absorb the radioactive isotopes. The people too if they don’t happen to have a fallout shelter handy.
The crops may absorb the isotopes, but the isotopes will continue to decay, and so by the time the crops are to be eaten they should be fairly safe. I agree that there would be terrible casualties, but I don’t think it would be as bad as having to spend a decade underground.
Moreover, my main point here is that the cloud of radioactive death might kill 95% of the US/Russia (or whoever the primary belligerents are) but by the time it reaches Brazil for instance it would be a lot less radioactive.
If that happened in the modern world, technological civilization might end and never be restarted.
I agree. The end of technological civilization is a different point from simple mass casualties—if ‘only’ 40% of humanity dies, but those 40% are concentrated in first world countries and urban centres, would the survivors be able to rebuild? Machinery would continue to work for a while, although the oil distribution chain would break for a while at least, but in the long run machinery would break. The factories tend to be in the first world countries that have been nuked, the universities in the cities have been mostly destroyed. Moreover there would likely be a general luddite tendency to blame technology for the crisis. Its probably easier to restablish resource extraction then to restart scientific research, and so we would be less likely to develop renewable energy before the fossil fuels run out. I suppose the end of technological civiliseation would reduce the population back to medieval levels, although this would be a long process of resources slowly running out and machinery slowly degrading.
If that happened in the modern world, technological civilization might end and never be restarted. The modern world depends on hugely complex infrastructure and tons of different industries and inputs. If we lose that, it would be very difficult to rebuild. We’ve already extracted most of the easy to get to minerals and fossil fuels. Much farmland has been degraded from overuse and depends on inputs of fertilizer, irrigation systems, and of course modern machinery which would be difficult to replace.
skeptical_lurker
I agree. The end of technological civilization is a different point from simple mass casualties—if ‘only’ 40% of humanity dies, but those 40% are concentrated in first world countries and urban centres, would the survivors be able to rebuild? Machinery would continue to work for a while, although the oil distribution chain would break for a while at least, but in the long run machinery would break. The factories tend to be in the first world countries that have been nuked, the universities in the cities have been mostly destroyed. Moreover there would likely be a general luddite tendency to blame technology for the crisis. Its probably easier to restablish resource extraction then to restart scientific research, and so we would be less likely to develop renewable energy before the fossil fuels run out. I suppose the end of technological civiliseation would reduce the population back to medieval levels, although this would be a long process of resources slowly running out and machinery slowly degrading.
I’ve often heard claims like these and wonder what the exact date of regression would be. Suppose the low hanging fruit have been removed for a number of modern resources (oil, helium, fissionables, rare metals). We still have quite a lot of coal (in the US and Russia), wind, and hydro power for energy. We also have abundant common metals, which might be more accessible than before if civilization collapsed and left a bunch of scrap around. My understanding is that coal and modern smelting techniques with common metals get us to at least 1850. Furthermore, modern scientific knowledge can’t be significantly lost because this requires destroying virtually all books or other records. Hence I would expect at least some of humanity to never slip further back than this point.
I’m sort of nitpicking though. I agree that 40% dead could easily lead to 90% dead.
In fact, most of the world does not have freedom of speech in the same way the US does—if one advocated HBD in, say, Germany, could one be thrown in prison in the same way people are imprisoned for saying ‘seig heil’?
There are things that you can’t legally say in Germany but standard claims about how different races have different IQ are not among the claims that are illegal in Germany. Berlin former minister of finance wrote a HBD book making the case about how IQ is heritable and how that should inform policy making.
Unfortunately it might also be an area where epistemic and instrumental rationality clash. In fact, most of the world does not have freedom of speech in the same way the US does—if one advocated HBD in, say, Germany, could one be thrown in prison in the same way people are imprisoned for saying ‘seig heil’? On reflection, that might be a bad example, because there is a good reason why laws prohibiting Nazism exist in specifically Germany, but laws against racial hatred exist in many other countries too, and I wonder if “I am just pointing out a scientific fact, it doesn’t mean I hate anyone” would be a successful legal defence when the judge and jury are not rationalists.
The study I am thinking of did account for this. It is thought that nuclear winter would last 6 months (based on global cooling from very large volcanic eruptions, 3 km^3 of ash cools the planet by 0.5 degrees for 6 months) and in the worst-case scenario this happens at the right time of the year to make the harvests fail. Africa starves and takes high casualties even without being nuked, while Japan raids nearby countries for food. I’m not sure why they singled out Japan for stealing food, maybe they were still angry over WWII or had some other reason to believe that Japan would behave like that.
There have been quite a few airburst nuclear tests, and the background radiation on earth has barely changed. While the half life of uranium is millions or billions of years (depending upon isotope) the products of a nuclear explosion have very short half-lives—the worst would be over within an hour. Not only do we not have enough bombs to contaminate the world, but ground zero would be habitable again after a few months. Hiroshima was rebuilt, not abandoned, after WWII.
Yes, I agree many countries would collaspe, and moreover that the primary combatants quite possibly would take over 90% casualties, the low global rate being largely because many countries emerge unscathed. If there were some reason for most countries to be nuked, and enough bombs to nuke them all, then 90% global casualties is a possiblity, and while I think a nuclear war between allmost all countries is unlikly, its still a lot more likly then 90% of humanity killed by environmental or political collapse.
Life is pretty good at surviving. Humans can live in the arctic circle and in tropical rainforest. Hopefully, by this time we would also have better technology to help us.
This is a little worrying. I thought it was mostly ‘just’ the corral reefs, which, while very pretty, are not vital to everything.
There is a difference between advocating something and merely believing it. But I’m mostly skeptical of the people that put “strongly disagree” on that question. As opposed to “disagree” or “neutral”. The fact that it’s so correlated with political ideology is more evidence that it’s just political bias.
If I lived 200 years ago, I wouldn’t go around advocating atheism. But I might have believed it privately, and I would be more skeptical of the openmindedness of people that say they “strongly oppose the evils of atheism”.
I really don’t know. When I researched this it seems like the effects are pretty hard to estimate. Different models give very different results. A recentish study using more modern climate models shows that the effects would be catastrophic and last for multiple years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter#2007_study_on_global_nuclear_war
Those first few months are the problem though. The crops and livestock die or absorb the radioactive isotopes. The people too if they don’t happen to have a fallout shelter handy.
Also the nuclear bombs themselves aren’t the only concern. You would have to deal with all the waste left in the cities they destroy. Nuclear power plants would melt down with no one to contain them. Vast amounts of chemical waste would leak from abandoned chemical plants and waste storage. Oil would leak and pollute the oceans with no cleanup.
I don’t know how to estimate the damage of this. But it should be at least a bad or worse than major industrial accidents of the past, like Bhopal, deepwater horizon, or Chernobyl. But all happening at once and with no one left to organize any kind of response.
I think you are underestimating the secondary effects. I imagine a complete destruction of the global economy. There isn’t enough food to go around and lots of countries are starving. This would lead to more war and chaos.
A few thousand years ago the civilizations of the mediterranean all collapsed almost at once. It’s now speculated to be the result of a serious drought and bad weather. The states that couldn’t feed their population got overthrown, and their hungry populations went to war with neighboring countries for food, until nothing of the old orders remained. It was a serious setback for humanity.
If that happened in the modern world, technological civilization might end and never be restarted. The modern world depends on hugely complex infrastructure and tons of different industries and inputs. If we lose that, it would be very difficult to rebuild. We’ve already extracted most of the easy to get to minerals and fossil fuels. Much farmland has been degraded from overuse and depends on inputs of fertilizer, irrigation systems, and of course modern machinery which would be difficult to replace.
This correlation is what interests me—it does fit with political bias, but could it also be that the political views are a product of beliefs in HBD?
I think I might have put too much faith in one study. Perhaps 90% deaths is plausible.
The crops may absorb the isotopes, but the isotopes will continue to decay, and so by the time the crops are to be eaten they should be fairly safe. I agree that there would be terrible casualties, but I don’t think it would be as bad as having to spend a decade underground.
Moreover, my main point here is that the cloud of radioactive death might kill 95% of the US/Russia (or whoever the primary belligerents are) but by the time it reaches Brazil for instance it would be a lot less radioactive.
I agree. The end of technological civilization is a different point from simple mass casualties—if ‘only’ 40% of humanity dies, but those 40% are concentrated in first world countries and urban centres, would the survivors be able to rebuild? Machinery would continue to work for a while, although the oil distribution chain would break for a while at least, but in the long run machinery would break. The factories tend to be in the first world countries that have been nuked, the universities in the cities have been mostly destroyed. Moreover there would likely be a general luddite tendency to blame technology for the crisis. Its probably easier to restablish resource extraction then to restart scientific research, and so we would be less likely to develop renewable energy before the fossil fuels run out. I suppose the end of technological civiliseation would reduce the population back to medieval levels, although this would be a long process of resources slowly running out and machinery slowly degrading.
Houshalter
skeptical_lurker
I’ve often heard claims like these and wonder what the exact date of regression would be. Suppose the low hanging fruit have been removed for a number of modern resources (oil, helium, fissionables, rare metals). We still have quite a lot of coal (in the US and Russia), wind, and hydro power for energy. We also have abundant common metals, which might be more accessible than before if civilization collapsed and left a bunch of scrap around. My understanding is that coal and modern smelting techniques with common metals get us to at least 1850. Furthermore, modern scientific knowledge can’t be significantly lost because this requires destroying virtually all books or other records. Hence I would expect at least some of humanity to never slip further back than this point.
I’m sort of nitpicking though. I agree that 40% dead could easily lead to 90% dead.
The preceding comments are a good example of Less Wrong users taking a contentious disagreement and coming to a courteous equilibrium. Impressive.
Thanks!
There are things that you can’t legally say in Germany but standard claims about how different races have different IQ are not among the claims that are illegal in Germany. Berlin former minister of finance wrote a HBD book making the case about how IQ is heritable and how that should inform policy making.