Something I think I picked up from LW is that there were historical groups called the rationalists and empiricists, where the empiricists were all about doing experiements and looking at the world, and the rationalists were all about figuring things out just by thinking.
Are these rationalists the same ones as those, and is that a fair description of them? (Or if not fair, is it sort of uncharitable-but-kinda-true?)
This distinction was always fake. The Wikipedia page on Rationalism begins with portraits of Descartes, Spinoza, and Leibniz. Spinoza was a lens grinder who worked closely with astronomer-physicist Christiaan Huygens and wrote in his magnum opus, Ethics, that we only know about things in the world through our bodies interacting with them. It is unclear to me how it is possible for someone to be more committed to looking at the world. The Wikipedia page on Empiricism begins with portraits of Francis Bacon, John Locke, and David Hume. Hume’s An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding includes the following, which implies that abstract mathematical reasoning is one of the two valid sources of knowledge, and refers to experimental reasoning:
If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.
“In the past, particularly in the 17th and 18th centuries, the term ‘rationalist’ was often used to refer to free thinkers of an anti-clerical and anti-religious outlook, and for a time the word acquired a distinctly pejorative force (thus in 1670 Sanderson spoke disparagingly of ‘a mere rationalist, that is to say in plain English an atheist of the late edition...‘). The use of the label ‘rationalist’ to characterize a world outlook which has no place for the supernatural is becoming less popular today; terms like ‘humanist’ or ‘materialist’ seem largely to have taken its place. But the old usage still survives.”
The Online Etymology Dictionary says:
1620s, “one who follows reason and not authority in thought or speculation,” especially “physician whose treatment is based on reasoning,” from rational + -ist. In theology/philosophy, “one who applies rational criticism to the claims of supernatural authority or revelation,” 1640s. This sense shades into that of “one who believes that human reason, properly employed, renders religion superfluous.” Related: Rationalistic; rationalism (1800 in medicine; 1827 in theology, “adherence to the supremacy of reason in matters of belief or conduct;” by 1876 in general use).
Separately, your definitions for rationalist vs. empiricist are off. Per SEP, the usual definition is some variant of ‘rationalists think we have some innate knowledge, while empiricists think we get all our knowledge from experience’.
Alberto Vanzo argues that the modern philosophical ‘rationalist vs. empiricist’ dichotomy comes from Kant and early Kant-influenced thinkers. Though the dichotomies ‘rational vs. irrational’ and ‘reason vs. experience’ are both much older than the term ‘rationalist’; e.g., Francis Bacon in ~1600 was contrasting ‘rationalis’ with ‘empiricus’, though this was talking about dogmatists vs. experimentalists, not talking about the modern (Kant-inspired) rationalist v. empiricist dichotomy.
Thanks, Rob! I agree with this summary. It is unfortunate that “rationalism” has this standard usage in philosophy (“rationalist vs empiricist”). This usage is not completely unrelated to the “rational vs superstitious/irrational” distinction, which makes it more likely to confuse. That said, outside of the fields of philosophy and intellectual history, not many people are aware of the rationalist/empiricist distinction, and so I don’t see it as a major problem.
If I try to steelman the Rationalist-Empiricist divide:
Empiricists think that arguments justifying organized violence are nonsense so we ought to ignore them, do what we like instead, and argue about math and science.
Rationalists think that arguments justifying organized violence are sketchy so we should investigate them carefully as hypotheses for how mind organizes itself in the world.
Something I think I picked up from LW is that there were historical groups called the rationalists and empiricists, where the empiricists were all about doing experiements and looking at the world, and the rationalists were all about figuring things out just by thinking.
Are these rationalists the same ones as those, and is that a fair description of them? (Or if not fair, is it sort of uncharitable-but-kinda-true?)
This distinction was always fake. The Wikipedia page on Rationalism begins with portraits of Descartes, Spinoza, and Leibniz. Spinoza was a lens grinder who worked closely with astronomer-physicist Christiaan Huygens and wrote in his magnum opus, Ethics, that we only know about things in the world through our bodies interacting with them. It is unclear to me how it is possible for someone to be more committed to looking at the world. The Wikipedia page on Empiricism begins with portraits of Francis Bacon, John Locke, and David Hume. Hume’s An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding includes the following, which implies that abstract mathematical reasoning is one of the two valid sources of knowledge, and refers to experimental reasoning:
That quote is metal as hell <3
It might not be actually true, or actually good advice… but it is metal as hell :-)
No, ‘rational’ here is being used in opposition to ‘irrational’, ‘religious’, ‘superstitious’, etc., not in opposition to ‘empirical’.
Quoting Wikipedia:
The Online Etymology Dictionary says:
Separately, your definitions for rationalist vs. empiricist are off. Per SEP, the usual definition is some variant of ‘rationalists think we have some innate knowledge, while empiricists think we get all our knowledge from experience’.
Alberto Vanzo argues that the modern philosophical ‘rationalist vs. empiricist’ dichotomy comes from Kant and early Kant-influenced thinkers. Though the dichotomies ‘rational vs. irrational’ and ‘reason vs. experience’ are both much older than the term ‘rationalist’; e.g., Francis Bacon in ~1600 was contrasting ‘rationalis’ with ‘empiricus’, though this was talking about dogmatists vs. experimentalists, not talking about the modern (Kant-inspired) rationalist v. empiricist dichotomy.
Thanks, Rob! I agree with this summary. It is unfortunate that “rationalism” has this standard usage in philosophy (“rationalist vs empiricist”). This usage is not completely unrelated to the “rational vs superstitious/irrational” distinction, which makes it more likely to confuse. That said, outside of the fields of philosophy and intellectual history, not many people are aware of the rationalist/empiricist distinction, and so I don’t see it as a major problem.
If I try to steelman the Rationalist-Empiricist divide:
Empiricists think that arguments justifying organized violence are nonsense so we ought to ignore them, do what we like instead, and argue about math and science.
Rationalists think that arguments justifying organized violence are sketchy so we should investigate them carefully as hypotheses for how mind organizes itself in the world.