But even PZ Myers, who is about a proselytizing New Atheist as you can get, has explicitly said that he doesn’t mind people engaging in religious behavior because it feels good (he has used the term “hobby”). The objection the proselytizing atheists have is that a) people don’t acknowledge that that sort of thing is purely chemical in nature b) religion in its current forms has massive negative side effects c) lots of deeply religious people make things worse for the atheists.
I go to religious services semi-regularly. This is mainly for social reasons, but that occasional vaguely ecstatic feeling is certainly a positive. Nothing in that constuction requires me to believe that that feeling is coming from anything other than material aspects of my own brain.
I’m also curious about your use of the word discriminate. While that word might have some purely denotative forms, it seems like you are using some connotations or other conclusions that discrimination is in general wrong. Can you expand on your definitions of discriminate/discrimination and point to the logical chain that it is always (ETA: in this case) wrong?
The objection the proselytizing atheists have is that a) people don’t acknowledge that that sort of thing is purely chemical in nature b) religion in its current forms has massive negative side effects c) lots of deeply religious people make things worse for the atheists.
I voted you up, because I agree with all this. Religionists in their current form do have massive side effects. They certainly don’t acknowledge the chemical basis of their experiences. Atheists are still in the minority, and suffer the effects of being a minority group. YES. AGREED. I’m not really discussing the issue on that level.
I go to religious services semi-regularly. This is mainly for social reasons, but that occasional vaguely ecstatic feeling is certainly a positive. Nothing in that constuction requires me to believe that that feeling is coming from anything other than material aspects of my own brain.
So...you’re agreeing with me? I’m not sure if you’re meaning to add anything, or depart in any way, from what I said above—if you did, please clarify, because I missed it.
I’m willing to break off into a discussion of the word “discriminate,” but not willing to defend it strongly, as I think my initial post already specified all the hesitancy I had around it. Can you suggest a better word?
So...you’re agreeing with me? I’m not sure if you’re meaning to add anything, or depart in any way, from what I said above—if you did, please clarify, because I missed it
Essentially agreeing with you. I thought it might be helpful to give a slightly different example, from someone who didn’t just have that sort of experience once, but still continues to have it.
I’m willing to break off into a discussion of the word “discriminate,” but not willing to defend it strongly, as I think my initial post already specified all the hesitancy I had around it. Can you suggest a better word?
I’m not sure. I guess, part of the issue is that this is the parts where I’m more inclined to disagree with you. The fact that people (such as myself) have a strange cognitive bug that makes us feel like we’re talking to an outside entity when we aren’t isn’t something that should be protected. If it turned out that some people had a brain form that forced them to engage in some cognitive errors, I’d feel sorry for them, but getting the rest of the population to understand that those are cognitive errors would still be a good thing. If PZ or Dawkins had an opportunity to press a button and remove all religion in the world, they would probably do it, and if I had to tell them what to do, I’d probably advocate for pressing the button, even though that means I’m no longer going to be able to get my semi-regular hit of religion.
The fact that people (such as myself) have a strange cognitive bug that makes us feel like we’re talking to an outside entity when we aren’t isn’t something that should be protected.
Mm, okay, I think I see your point. No, it shouldn’t be protected at the expense of true understanding.
But my point is that I think the feeling of spiritual unity (which is an intensely desirable feeling) can be preserved, even while a frame of realistic cognitive understanding is added. I mean, it sounds like that’s what you’re already doing—exploiting the “hit” of religion while recognizing that it comes entirely from “material aspects of [your] own brain.” Right?
But even PZ Myers, who is about a proselytizing New Atheist as you can get, has explicitly said that he doesn’t mind people engaging in religious behavior because it feels good (he has used the term “hobby”). The objection the proselytizing atheists have is that a) people don’t acknowledge that that sort of thing is purely chemical in nature b) religion in its current forms has massive negative side effects c) lots of deeply religious people make things worse for the atheists.
I go to religious services semi-regularly. This is mainly for social reasons, but that occasional vaguely ecstatic feeling is certainly a positive. Nothing in that constuction requires me to believe that that feeling is coming from anything other than material aspects of my own brain.
I’m also curious about your use of the word discriminate. While that word might have some purely denotative forms, it seems like you are using some connotations or other conclusions that discrimination is in general wrong. Can you expand on your definitions of discriminate/discrimination and point to the logical chain that it is always (ETA: in this case) wrong?
I voted you up, because I agree with all this. Religionists in their current form do have massive side effects. They certainly don’t acknowledge the chemical basis of their experiences. Atheists are still in the minority, and suffer the effects of being a minority group. YES. AGREED. I’m not really discussing the issue on that level.
So...you’re agreeing with me? I’m not sure if you’re meaning to add anything, or depart in any way, from what I said above—if you did, please clarify, because I missed it.
I’m willing to break off into a discussion of the word “discriminate,” but not willing to defend it strongly, as I think my initial post already specified all the hesitancy I had around it. Can you suggest a better word?
Essentially agreeing with you. I thought it might be helpful to give a slightly different example, from someone who didn’t just have that sort of experience once, but still continues to have it.
I’m not sure. I guess, part of the issue is that this is the parts where I’m more inclined to disagree with you. The fact that people (such as myself) have a strange cognitive bug that makes us feel like we’re talking to an outside entity when we aren’t isn’t something that should be protected. If it turned out that some people had a brain form that forced them to engage in some cognitive errors, I’d feel sorry for them, but getting the rest of the population to understand that those are cognitive errors would still be a good thing. If PZ or Dawkins had an opportunity to press a button and remove all religion in the world, they would probably do it, and if I had to tell them what to do, I’d probably advocate for pressing the button, even though that means I’m no longer going to be able to get my semi-regular hit of religion.
Mm, okay, I think I see your point. No, it shouldn’t be protected at the expense of true understanding.
But my point is that I think the feeling of spiritual unity (which is an intensely desirable feeling) can be preserved, even while a frame of realistic cognitive understanding is added. I mean, it sounds like that’s what you’re already doing—exploiting the “hit” of religion while recognizing that it comes entirely from “material aspects of [your] own brain.” Right?