It sounds like in your first paragraph about debates, you’re saying a lot of people target their arguments ineffectively. Any theories on why that is, or whether there are specific biases involved?
I think that the main purpose of debates, in the minds of their sponsors, is to entertain rather than to inform. The news network that sets up a debate chooses people who will make colorful accusations against each other. They would be disappointed if the debaters reached agreement halfway through the debate.
A secondary purpose of debates may be for each side to educate and motivate its base.
I think your secondary purpose is actually the primary purpose, excluding sponsors, who I agree, usually set up the debate for entertainment.
Even if both sides claim that changing minds is the purpose, the actions show otherwise. The “change minds” or “reveal the truth” is a convenient lie, and one that’s actually believed. Plus, it would be tacky and uncivilized to state the real reason for the debate, best to claim a more noble imperative—and believe it.
Depending on how polarized the sides are, the audience is either mostly, or completely going there to watch a fight and root for their team. Although the audience may respect the other side if they play well, they’re rooting for their side getting in some choice jabs, resulting in a KO. I don’t think, leading up to the event, any side of a debate actually says “this will really change some minds!” No, it’s usually “we’re going to show them why we’re right and they’re wrong,” or some more sophisticated equivalent of “it’s beat-down time.”
I will grant that if one side comes off as incredibly foolish, some may abandon it, but how often does that happen? Betting on a side already makes a person more confident of that choice being the right one.
Dawkins and other aggressive-in-that-way atheists irritate me: they’re being very irrational about either their purpose or their approach. If they want more rational atheists, their chosen methods are very poor. If they just want to have pride in being right, and rallying their base, they shouldn’t keep up a pretense of spreading rational atheism. They want both, but they can’t have it.
I want to make a longer and more focused reply on what I see as the core questions: how can we change minds, and how should we? I’ve been wanting to tackle it here for a while, but I have trouble keeping up with this site.
Depending on how polarized the sides are, the audience is either mostly, or completely going there to watch a fight and root for their team.
Like I said, entertainment.
If they just want to have pride in being right, and rallying their base, they shouldn’t keep up a pretense of spreading rational atheism. They want both, but they can’t have it.
Theory 2 proposes a way that rallying the base spreads atheism.
Granted, I didn’t express my thoughts on that clearly. I think there is a fundamental difference between attempting to get someone to agree with your opinions and helping them develop rationality—likely through both similar and different opinions. I think the latter is a better moral play, and it’s genuine.
What is the higher priority result for a rational atheist targeting a theist:
a more rational theist
a not-any-more-rational-than-before atheist
an irrational agnostic
I think the biggest “win” of the results is the first. But groups claiming to favor rationality most still get stuck on opinions all the time (cryogenics comes to mind). Groups tend to congregate around opinions, and forcing that opinion becomes the group agenda, even though they believe it’s the right and rational opinion to have. It’s hard, because a group that shares few opinions is hardly a group at all, but the sharing of opinions and exclusion of those with different opinions works against an agenda of rationality. And shouldn’t that be the agenda of a rational atheist?
I think the “people who don’t care” of your 1st theory are either 1) unimportant or 2) don’t exist, depending on the meaning of the phrase.
I think theory 2 makes a fatal mistake, it emphasizes the cart (opinion) rather than the horse (rational thinking). I’m willing to grant they’re not so separate and cut-and-dry, but I wanted to illustrate the distinction I see.
I think that the main purpose of debates, in the minds of their sponsors, is to entertain rather than to inform. The news network that sets up a debate chooses people who will make colorful accusations against each other. They would be disappointed if the debaters reached agreement halfway through the debate.
A secondary purpose of debates may be for each side to educate and motivate its base.
I think your secondary purpose is actually the primary purpose, excluding sponsors, who I agree, usually set up the debate for entertainment.
Even if both sides claim that changing minds is the purpose, the actions show otherwise. The “change minds” or “reveal the truth” is a convenient lie, and one that’s actually believed. Plus, it would be tacky and uncivilized to state the real reason for the debate, best to claim a more noble imperative—and believe it.
Depending on how polarized the sides are, the audience is either mostly, or completely going there to watch a fight and root for their team. Although the audience may respect the other side if they play well, they’re rooting for their side getting in some choice jabs, resulting in a KO. I don’t think, leading up to the event, any side of a debate actually says “this will really change some minds!” No, it’s usually “we’re going to show them why we’re right and they’re wrong,” or some more sophisticated equivalent of “it’s beat-down time.”
I will grant that if one side comes off as incredibly foolish, some may abandon it, but how often does that happen? Betting on a side already makes a person more confident of that choice being the right one.
Dawkins and other aggressive-in-that-way atheists irritate me: they’re being very irrational about either their purpose or their approach. If they want more rational atheists, their chosen methods are very poor. If they just want to have pride in being right, and rallying their base, they shouldn’t keep up a pretense of spreading rational atheism. They want both, but they can’t have it.
I want to make a longer and more focused reply on what I see as the core questions: how can we change minds, and how should we? I’ve been wanting to tackle it here for a while, but I have trouble keeping up with this site.
Like I said, entertainment.
Theory 2 proposes a way that rallying the base spreads atheism.
And I said rational atheism, not atheism.
Granted, I didn’t express my thoughts on that clearly. I think there is a fundamental difference between attempting to get someone to agree with your opinions and helping them develop rationality—likely through both similar and different opinions. I think the latter is a better moral play, and it’s genuine.
What is the higher priority result for a rational atheist targeting a theist:
a more rational theist
a not-any-more-rational-than-before atheist
an irrational agnostic
I think the biggest “win” of the results is the first. But groups claiming to favor rationality most still get stuck on opinions all the time (cryogenics comes to mind). Groups tend to congregate around opinions, and forcing that opinion becomes the group agenda, even though they believe it’s the right and rational opinion to have. It’s hard, because a group that shares few opinions is hardly a group at all, but the sharing of opinions and exclusion of those with different opinions works against an agenda of rationality. And shouldn’t that be the agenda of a rational atheist?
I think the “people who don’t care” of your 1st theory are either 1) unimportant or 2) don’t exist, depending on the meaning of the phrase.
I think theory 2 makes a fatal mistake, it emphasizes the cart (opinion) rather than the horse (rational thinking). I’m willing to grant they’re not so separate and cut-and-dry, but I wanted to illustrate the distinction I see.