I think of irrationality as being stuck in a pocket universe. The real world is the way it is, but my biases/blind spots/false beliefs exile me to a smaller world, disconnected from the real one, and I want to correct my errors and return home.
In fact, it’s even worse than a pocket universe, because my actions take place in the real world. So every error can have consequences (imagine walking around, blind to trees, and how often you’d bonk your head)
Wait, a pocket universe actually sounds like a cozy nice safe place to hide from the big, mean world. About actions, this really rings with my empoweredness hypothesis: if people feel their future depends on their own consequences, i.e. they are not powerless, they are motivated to be rational. If people feel their future depends on the powers that be that use them as puppets and their own choices matter not, then not.
I’ve noticed that a lot of my desire to be rational is social. I was raised as the local “smart kid” and continue to feel associated with that identity. I get all the stuff about rationality should be approached like “I have this thing I care about, and therefore become rational to protect it.” but I just don’t feel that way. I’m not sure how I feel about that.
Of the three reasons to be rational that are described, I’m most motivated by the moral reason. This is probably because of the aforementioned identity. I feel very offended at anything I perceive as “irrational” in others, kinda like it’s an attack on my tribe. This has negative effects on my social life and causes me to be very arrogant to others. Does anybody have any advice for that?
Oooh, I have advice! I’ve gotten so much from this site in my first week or two here, and this is my first chance to potentially help someone else :) If you think MBTI personality typing has no value, don’t bother with this. It sounds silly, but finding out about Myers-Briggs was actually life-changing for me. Knowing someone’s type can help you develop realistic expectations for their behavior, communicate much more effectively, and empathize. Other people are no longer mysteries!
Idk how familiar you are with MBTI, but there are 4 strict dichotomies, and of course some people fall on the borderline for some of them, but one of the more interesting to me is Thinking (not to be confused with intelligence) vs. Feeling (not to be confused with emotion). This gives a thorough explanation, which should help you understand “irrational” people a little better. And once you understand them, you’ll be less likely to be offended by them and more likely to get along.
If there’s anyone in particular that this is a struggle with, I’d recommend trying to figure out their full personality and reading the profile on the personality page here. When I was little, my strong-willed, very rational ISTP personality conflicted with my mother’s ESFJ type and led to many mutual frustrations; we just couldn’t relate to each other. Maybe you have some ESFJ types in your life. These are their weaknesses:
*May be unable to correctly judge what really is for the best
*May become spiteful and extremely intractable in the face of clear, logical reasoning
*May be unable to shrug off feelings that others are not “good people”
*May be unable to acknowledge anything that goes against their certainty about the “correct” or “right” way to do things
*May attribute their own problems to arbitrary and unprovable notions about the way people “ought” to behave
*May be at a loss when confronted with situations that require basic technical expertise or clear thinking
*May be oblivious to all but their own viewpoint, valuing their own viewpoint, valuing their own certainties to the exclusion of others
*May be unable to understand verbal logic, and quickly cut off other’s explanations
*May be falsely certain of the true needs and feeling of others
*May be extremely vulnerable to superstitions, religious cults, and media manipulation
*May react too quickly and too emotionally in a situation better dealt with in a more pragmatic fashion
They have plenty of very nice strengths too, but seriously, with all these natural weaknesses, it’s not their fault they’re less rational than you are. That doesn’t mean they can’t improve, but they’re starting from a totally different playing field. If you like your rationality (I know I do!) and think your type is generally better than most others, thank the universe that when it comes to decision making, you were born looking at logic and consistency instead of at people and special circumstances...but don’t look down on people who weren’t so lucky? Imagine what it’s like to be them?
Since discovering MBTI and reading up on my mom’s personality type, I’ve been able to understand and communicate with her soo much better. A story, to illustrate, from back in high school when I first discovered and started to use MBTI:
I prefer driving to passengering. The last time I had driven with my mom, she was napping and woke up to find me driving about 80 in a 65. She was horrified. The next time I offered to drive, she said no. What I wanted to say, which never would have worked: I was just keeping up with traffic, if I get a speeding ticket, it’s my own fault and I’ll accept the consequences, there wasn’t much real danger driving 80 on a clear night with good weather. What I actually said, which did work: Awww, c’mon Mom, let me redeem myself!
Another interesting MBTI fact:
Personality type is strongly correlated with religiosity. When I de-converted from Christianity a few months back, I had a conversation with my mom where I predicted that my “Thinking” and “Perceiving” preferences made me far less likely to remain in the faith than she was with “Feeling” and “Judging” preferences. Then I found a study that confirmed it.
I knew that I couldn’t convince her that Christianity was wrong by pointing to inconsistencies or evidence, so rather than going on the offensive, I took the defensive side and played on her sympathies, glumly saying, “If Christianity is true, it’s lucky for you that your personality type is the second most likely to believe. Unlucky for me that mine is so likely to abandon the faith. People talk about open-mindedness, curiosity, and logic as if they are good qualities, but I guess if Christianity is true, in the grand scheme of eternity we thinker-perceivers really got the short end of the stick, didn’t we? People always talk about how it looks like God plays favorites based on culture, but this personality type favoritism seems just as harsh. I guess you should be extra thankful for yours. No matter how hard I prayed for a stronger faith, no matter how much I wanted it, it just didn’t happen.”
It was that easy! My mom loves me as much as ever, and I love her as much as anyone. :) Our relationship didn’t even really take a hit, except for the unfortunate fact that she happens to think if I died today, I would go to hell. But she’s convinced this is just a phase, that God will bring me back to him eventually, because in the words of Proverbs 22:6, “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” (A passage you could use as one more piece of evidence against the Bible if you were discussing the matter with someone who looked at logic and consistency rather than people and special circumstances.)
So yeah, I hope this helps at least a little bit! Just go to the personality page and read through the profiles to get a better understanding of how other people operate. It’s kind of fun!
Thank you! That’s the first in-depth presentation of someone actually benefiting from MBTI that I’ve ever seen, and it’s really interesting. I’ll mull over it. I guess the main thing to keep in mind is that other people are different from me.
I do not perceive rationality or intelligence as a thing; it is an invisible implied assumption. I notice irrationality and stupidity as things.
I notice irrationality or stupidity as a mistake. Then I try to correct people, but they resist. Then I am frustrated and give up; and if it happens repeatedly, in my head I assign the person label “an irrational person, not useful for debates that require thinking”.
Then I reflect on a more meta level and think: “if this is how other people seem to me, there are probably people on a level higher than me, and this is how I seem to them”. But it’s not just a social feeling that these people may have a wrong opinion on me, but rather the chilling relization that yes, they are completely right. That I behave as an idiot in many ways which are mostly invisible to me, but they have a huge cumulative impact on my quality of life. Then I realize I only have one life, and I am not getting out of it as much as I could.
I do not really need Eliezer to show me that the scale of intelligence goes beyong Einstein. I am very clearly aware that I am far from the Einstein level; and I am smart enough to realize that quoting web articles about relativity would not bring me any closer. (And probably Einstein is still far away from the “human potential” level. And even if he were literally at the top; he didn’t have the opportunities we have now, such as internet, so it is possible to do much more today than what Einstein did in his era.)
I see the huge difference between where am I now, and where I could possibly be if I were just more strategic. Actually, I have problem understanding how other people don’t see this. I guess most people have some “ugh field” around it; they feel pain from the idea that they are not as good as their potential, so they avoid the thought. (Makes sense, since the circumstances of receiving the information usually feel bad.) I do not know why I don’t feel this so strongly. Probably it is some failure of some social skills brain module, which should remind me that “admitting to not being perfect” is horribly low-status (unless it is performed as some form of fake humility, which requires staying sufficiently non-specific and avoiding your really painful points), and that I should try to hide this thought from everyone, starting with myself.
What motivates you to be more rational in your everyday life?
I think of irrationality as being stuck in a pocket universe. The real world is the way it is, but my biases/blind spots/false beliefs exile me to a smaller world, disconnected from the real one, and I want to correct my errors and return home.
In fact, it’s even worse than a pocket universe, because my actions take place in the real world. So every error can have consequences (imagine walking around, blind to trees, and how often you’d bonk your head)
Wait, a pocket universe actually sounds like a cozy nice safe place to hide from the big, mean world. About actions, this really rings with my empoweredness hypothesis: if people feel their future depends on their own consequences, i.e. they are not powerless, they are motivated to be rational. If people feel their future depends on the powers that be that use them as puppets and their own choices matter not, then not.
I’ve noticed that a lot of my desire to be rational is social. I was raised as the local “smart kid” and continue to feel associated with that identity. I get all the stuff about rationality should be approached like “I have this thing I care about, and therefore become rational to protect it.” but I just don’t feel that way. I’m not sure how I feel about that.
Of the three reasons to be rational that are described, I’m most motivated by the moral reason. This is probably because of the aforementioned identity. I feel very offended at anything I perceive as “irrational” in others, kinda like it’s an attack on my tribe. This has negative effects on my social life and causes me to be very arrogant to others. Does anybody have any advice for that?
Oooh, I have advice! I’ve gotten so much from this site in my first week or two here, and this is my first chance to potentially help someone else :) If you think MBTI personality typing has no value, don’t bother with this. It sounds silly, but finding out about Myers-Briggs was actually life-changing for me. Knowing someone’s type can help you develop realistic expectations for their behavior, communicate much more effectively, and empathize. Other people are no longer mysteries!
Idk how familiar you are with MBTI, but there are 4 strict dichotomies, and of course some people fall on the borderline for some of them, but one of the more interesting to me is Thinking (not to be confused with intelligence) vs. Feeling (not to be confused with emotion). This gives a thorough explanation, which should help you understand “irrational” people a little better. And once you understand them, you’ll be less likely to be offended by them and more likely to get along.
If there’s anyone in particular that this is a struggle with, I’d recommend trying to figure out their full personality and reading the profile on the personality page here. When I was little, my strong-willed, very rational ISTP personality conflicted with my mother’s ESFJ type and led to many mutual frustrations; we just couldn’t relate to each other. Maybe you have some ESFJ types in your life. These are their weaknesses:
*May be unable to correctly judge what really is for the best
*May become spiteful and extremely intractable in the face of clear, logical reasoning
*May be unable to shrug off feelings that others are not “good people”
*May be unable to acknowledge anything that goes against their certainty about the “correct” or “right” way to do things
*May attribute their own problems to arbitrary and unprovable notions about the way people “ought” to behave
*May be at a loss when confronted with situations that require basic technical expertise or clear thinking
*May be oblivious to all but their own viewpoint, valuing their own viewpoint, valuing their own certainties to the exclusion of others
*May be unable to understand verbal logic, and quickly cut off other’s explanations
*May be falsely certain of the true needs and feeling of others
*May be extremely vulnerable to superstitions, religious cults, and media manipulation
*May react too quickly and too emotionally in a situation better dealt with in a more pragmatic fashion
They have plenty of very nice strengths too, but seriously, with all these natural weaknesses, it’s not their fault they’re less rational than you are. That doesn’t mean they can’t improve, but they’re starting from a totally different playing field. If you like your rationality (I know I do!) and think your type is generally better than most others, thank the universe that when it comes to decision making, you were born looking at logic and consistency instead of at people and special circumstances...but don’t look down on people who weren’t so lucky? Imagine what it’s like to be them?
Since discovering MBTI and reading up on my mom’s personality type, I’ve been able to understand and communicate with her soo much better. A story, to illustrate, from back in high school when I first discovered and started to use MBTI:
I prefer driving to passengering. The last time I had driven with my mom, she was napping and woke up to find me driving about 80 in a 65. She was horrified. The next time I offered to drive, she said no. What I wanted to say, which never would have worked: I was just keeping up with traffic, if I get a speeding ticket, it’s my own fault and I’ll accept the consequences, there wasn’t much real danger driving 80 on a clear night with good weather. What I actually said, which did work: Awww, c’mon Mom, let me redeem myself!
Another interesting MBTI fact: Personality type is strongly correlated with religiosity. When I de-converted from Christianity a few months back, I had a conversation with my mom where I predicted that my “Thinking” and “Perceiving” preferences made me far less likely to remain in the faith than she was with “Feeling” and “Judging” preferences. Then I found a study that confirmed it.
I knew that I couldn’t convince her that Christianity was wrong by pointing to inconsistencies or evidence, so rather than going on the offensive, I took the defensive side and played on her sympathies, glumly saying, “If Christianity is true, it’s lucky for you that your personality type is the second most likely to believe. Unlucky for me that mine is so likely to abandon the faith. People talk about open-mindedness, curiosity, and logic as if they are good qualities, but I guess if Christianity is true, in the grand scheme of eternity we thinker-perceivers really got the short end of the stick, didn’t we? People always talk about how it looks like God plays favorites based on culture, but this personality type favoritism seems just as harsh. I guess you should be extra thankful for yours. No matter how hard I prayed for a stronger faith, no matter how much I wanted it, it just didn’t happen.”
It was that easy! My mom loves me as much as ever, and I love her as much as anyone. :) Our relationship didn’t even really take a hit, except for the unfortunate fact that she happens to think if I died today, I would go to hell. But she’s convinced this is just a phase, that God will bring me back to him eventually, because in the words of Proverbs 22:6, “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” (A passage you could use as one more piece of evidence against the Bible if you were discussing the matter with someone who looked at logic and consistency rather than people and special circumstances.)
So yeah, I hope this helps at least a little bit! Just go to the personality page and read through the profiles to get a better understanding of how other people operate. It’s kind of fun!
Thank you! That’s the first in-depth presentation of someone actually benefiting from MBTI that I’ve ever seen, and it’s really interesting. I’ll mull over it. I guess the main thing to keep in mind is that other people are different from me.
I do not perceive rationality or intelligence as a thing; it is an invisible implied assumption. I notice irrationality and stupidity as things.
I notice irrationality or stupidity as a mistake. Then I try to correct people, but they resist. Then I am frustrated and give up; and if it happens repeatedly, in my head I assign the person label “an irrational person, not useful for debates that require thinking”.
Then I reflect on a more meta level and think: “if this is how other people seem to me, there are probably people on a level higher than me, and this is how I seem to them”. But it’s not just a social feeling that these people may have a wrong opinion on me, but rather the chilling relization that yes, they are completely right. That I behave as an idiot in many ways which are mostly invisible to me, but they have a huge cumulative impact on my quality of life. Then I realize I only have one life, and I am not getting out of it as much as I could.
I do not really need Eliezer to show me that the scale of intelligence goes beyong Einstein. I am very clearly aware that I am far from the Einstein level; and I am smart enough to realize that quoting web articles about relativity would not bring me any closer. (And probably Einstein is still far away from the “human potential” level. And even if he were literally at the top; he didn’t have the opportunities we have now, such as internet, so it is possible to do much more today than what Einstein did in his era.)
I see the huge difference between where am I now, and where I could possibly be if I were just more strategic. Actually, I have problem understanding how other people don’t see this. I guess most people have some “ugh field” around it; they feel pain from the idea that they are not as good as their potential, so they avoid the thought. (Makes sense, since the circumstances of receiving the information usually feel bad.) I do not know why I don’t feel this so strongly. Probably it is some failure of some social skills brain module, which should remind me that “admitting to not being perfect” is horribly low-status (unless it is performed as some form of fake humility, which requires staying sufficiently non-specific and avoiding your really painful points), and that I should try to hide this thought from everyone, starting with myself.
But I’d rather win.