Let’s assume that given what people knew at the time, it was a good idea. Don’t you still think that today it would still be “widely recognized” as a bad idea?
Actually, historians, including some of my colleagues at the Ohio State history department, have found that the internment was not based on credible information, but an rampant anti-Asian racism. By comparison, Germans were left alone, with no restrictions of any sort on their civil liberties, not to speak of internment.
“Actually, historians, including some of my colleagues at the Ohio State history department, have found that the internment was not based on credible information, but an rampant anti-Asian racism.”
I would expect most historians to conclude this regardless of evidence. I don’t trust academia on matters of political correctness. Imagine a non-Asian history grad student tells you that he has found evidence that FDR had based his internment policy on credible evidence, and this grad student asks you if political correctness would make it difficult for him to get a job if he publishes a paper on this topic. What would you tell him?
I would expect most historians to conclude this regardless of evidence. I don’t trust academia on matters of political correctness.
You are welcome to mistrust academia, but it doesn’t mean you can dismiss the evidence with simply saying you mistrust academia. Peer review is peer review, in all cases and contexts.
Imagine a non-Asian history grad student tells you that he has found evidence that FDR had based his internment policy on credible evidence, and this grad student asks you if political correctness would make it difficult for him to get a job if he publishes a paper on this topic. What would you tell him?
I would tell him he has a great shot, as he would then gain a great deal of attention if he actually had credible evidence and countered the previous evidence convincingly.
EDIT: Now how much have you updated based on my response, to both questions? Do you consider evidence to be evidence? Do you consider my credibility as an academic historian to be evidence? If so, how much have you updated? If you have not updated, I would urge you to reconsider your level or rationality.
“Peer review is peer review, in all cases and contexts” I trust you really don’t mean this. If a woman studies journal publishes a peer reviewed article saying that 25% of women on college campuses have been raped, I trust you would give this statistic almost no weight.
I don’t mistrust academia on all topics, just on issues related to political correctness. Lots of women studies professors say that gender is a social construct. This sends a strong signal about the value of truth in some areas of academia
I update a little in your favor, but I’m an academic myself (an economist at Smith College) so my priors are fairly strongly held.
“I would tell him he has a great shot, as he would then gain a great deal of attention if he actually had credible evidence and countered the previous evidence convincingly.” Yes, just like Larry Summers received when he suggested that genetics MIGHT play a role in why so few women are in sciences. When I mentioned at a panel on free speech at Smith College that I thought Larry Summers was probably right about this, another professor on the panel said I didn’t belong at Smith.
“I would tell him he has a great shot, as he would then gain a great deal of attention if he actually had credible evidence and countered the previous evidence convincingly.” Yes, just like Larry Summers received when he suggested that genetics MIGHT play a role in why so few women are in sciences
The key weasel phrase is “credible evidence.” And yeah, it would be tantamount to career suicide for any humanities PhD student to argue in his dissertation that the internment of Japanese Americans was a good idea. (Maybe he could get away with it if he were Japanese.)
Many, perhaps most cultures and subcultures have taboos. In Thailand, you don’t insult the King. In Saudi Arabia, you don’t insult Islam. And in the American Academy, you don’t say anything which might be construed as racist.
Peer review is peer review, correct. I don’t say all peer review processes are made equal. If a woman’s studies journal published it, I would consider it very weak evidence if the journal published similar things before. If it did not, I would consider it moderately weak evidence. Also depends on who is on the masthead of the journal.
Yeah, I hear you about Summers, that was a witch-hunting campaign.
A grad student offering a credible evidence would make a nice career out of it. I have a high probability estimate of this, and have seen plenty of examples in my field to provide support for it. Paradigm-shifting claims, credibly presented, are powerful makers of careers.
“have seen plenty of examples in my field to provide support for it.” Are these examples of where the thesis was politically incorrect?
“Yeah, I hear you about Summers, that was a witch-hunting campaign.” Doesn’t this provide strong evidence that you can’t trust many academics on issues relating to race and gender?
Yup, the examples were where the thesis was politically incorrect. For instance, there were a number of graduate students in Soviet history who made careers claiming that the Soviet Union was more violent than the politically correct, leftist historical mainstream narrative depicted. Similarly, I know a graduate student who made a career out of showing that the Amish were actually much more tolerant and respectful toward women than the historical mainstream narrative depicted.
There’s a large gap between saying that the hounding of Summers was a witch-hunting campaign, and that one can’t trust many academics on issues relating to race and gender. The latter is a categorical and absolutist statement, one that does not nuance then situation in any significant way. It doesn’t acknowledge that weak evidence is still evidence, or that plenty of academics—such as myself and apparently you—have more complex and nuanced takes on women and gender and race.
That is evidence that historians can be trusted, although the Amish are clearly “others” and so defending them isn’t really that politically incorrect.
“There’s a large gap between saying that the hounding of Summers was a witch-hunting campaign, and that one can’t trust many academics on issues relating to race and gender.” I don’t agree. The hounding was widespread and sent a clear message that you risk a lot if you take a politically incorrect position on issues of race or gender. If there is a group of 1,000 scholars and I believe that 100 of them will lie concerning issue X, and that another 600 would only write about issue X if they found evidence favoring a particular side, and I can’t differentiate among the scholars then it’s reasonable for me to give almost no weight to what any of these scholars say about issue X.
My personal story might be biasing me. I was initially denied tenure, but won an internal appeal when five professors on a grievance committee held that two members of my department had violated my academic freedom in my tenure review, one for being upset that I had criticized women studies departments in a National Review Online article.
Thanks for sharing your story. I’m having some challenges of my own with tenure due to my mental health challenges. It’s a powerful driver that’s leading me to be quite discontent with many aspects of academia.
Once you start citing your own credentials and credibility as evidence, you are no longer allowed to complain about ad hominems. That you don’t appear to know this further undermines both.
If I do that then my credibility becomes relevant and hence so does evidence that there are problems with it (what you call ad hominem).
For example, you’ve claimed severaltimes that people should believe you because you are an academic historian. However, you’ve also demonstrated an unfamiliarity with how academic politics works and with basic aspects of logical argument. This can lead to sevral possible conclusions:
1) You’re lying about being an academic historian.
2) You really are an academic historian, but are bad at observation and reasoning, and thus likely to be incompetent at your job.
3) You really are an academic historian who is perfectly willing to lie and commit logical fallacies when it helps advance your argument.
Either way, we no longer have any reason to believe that you claim on your authority.
BTW, it’s interesting to observe that the comment I linked to had −6 karma last times I saw it a day ago, and now has +4. Kinda curious how it went up so far, especially since it was hidden below the threshold for the vast majority of users. At the same time, my karma over the last day went down from 1009 to 940. Sock puppet much, VoiceOfRa?
I believe I am competent at my job. You claim I am incompetent. I’d like to make a bet with you about whether an external outsider would judge me as competent at my job. How about $1000? Take the bet, or take back your claims.
I notice you did not, have not thought this whole thread, presented arguments in your favor, or even addressed my arguments. I’d be willing to take the bet, I propose brasil84 as the judge. If you want to propose a different judge, I’s want to verify that he is himself competent to judge and isn’t biased towards you.
So you’re saying you’re incompetent at your job, got it.
Well it depends on how one define’s his “job.” As a tenure-track professor, one could argue that his primary job is to make a good impression on his tenure committee. From that perspective, publishing an op-ed which implies that rationalism just happens to support left-wing foreign policy is probably a pretty good idea. So one could say that he’s doing his job rather well.
Let’s assume that given what people knew at the time, it was a good idea. Don’t you still think that today it would still be “widely recognized” as a bad idea?
Actually, historians, including some of my colleagues at the Ohio State history department, have found that the internment was not based on credible information, but an rampant anti-Asian racism. By comparison, Germans were left alone, with no restrictions of any sort on their civil liberties, not to speak of internment.
“Actually, historians, including some of my colleagues at the Ohio State history department, have found that the internment was not based on credible information, but an rampant anti-Asian racism.”
I would expect most historians to conclude this regardless of evidence. I don’t trust academia on matters of political correctness. Imagine a non-Asian history grad student tells you that he has found evidence that FDR had based his internment policy on credible evidence, and this grad student asks you if political correctness would make it difficult for him to get a job if he publishes a paper on this topic. What would you tell him?
You are welcome to mistrust academia, but it doesn’t mean you can dismiss the evidence with simply saying you mistrust academia. Peer review is peer review, in all cases and contexts.
I would tell him he has a great shot, as he would then gain a great deal of attention if he actually had credible evidence and countered the previous evidence convincingly.
EDIT: Now how much have you updated based on my response, to both questions? Do you consider evidence to be evidence? Do you consider my credibility as an academic historian to be evidence? If so, how much have you updated? If you have not updated, I would urge you to reconsider your level or rationality.
“Peer review is peer review, in all cases and contexts” I trust you really don’t mean this. If a woman studies journal publishes a peer reviewed article saying that 25% of women on college campuses have been raped, I trust you would give this statistic almost no weight.
I don’t mistrust academia on all topics, just on issues related to political correctness. Lots of women studies professors say that gender is a social construct. This sends a strong signal about the value of truth in some areas of academia
I update a little in your favor, but I’m an academic myself (an economist at Smith College) so my priors are fairly strongly held.
“I would tell him he has a great shot, as he would then gain a great deal of attention if he actually had credible evidence and countered the previous evidence convincingly.” Yes, just like Larry Summers received when he suggested that genetics MIGHT play a role in why so few women are in sciences. When I mentioned at a panel on free speech at Smith College that I thought Larry Summers was probably right about this, another professor on the panel said I didn’t belong at Smith.
The key weasel phrase is “credible evidence.” And yeah, it would be tantamount to career suicide for any humanities PhD student to argue in his dissertation that the internment of Japanese Americans was a good idea. (Maybe he could get away with it if he were Japanese.)
Many, perhaps most cultures and subcultures have taboos. In Thailand, you don’t insult the King. In Saudi Arabia, you don’t insult Islam. And in the American Academy, you don’t say anything which might be construed as racist.
Peer review is peer review, correct. I don’t say all peer review processes are made equal. If a woman’s studies journal published it, I would consider it very weak evidence if the journal published similar things before. If it did not, I would consider it moderately weak evidence. Also depends on who is on the masthead of the journal.
Yeah, I hear you about Summers, that was a witch-hunting campaign.
A grad student offering a credible evidence would make a nice career out of it. I have a high probability estimate of this, and have seen plenty of examples in my field to provide support for it. Paradigm-shifting claims, credibly presented, are powerful makers of careers.
“have seen plenty of examples in my field to provide support for it.” Are these examples of where the thesis was politically incorrect?
“Yeah, I hear you about Summers, that was a witch-hunting campaign.” Doesn’t this provide strong evidence that you can’t trust many academics on issues relating to race and gender?
Yup, the examples were where the thesis was politically incorrect. For instance, there were a number of graduate students in Soviet history who made careers claiming that the Soviet Union was more violent than the politically correct, leftist historical mainstream narrative depicted. Similarly, I know a graduate student who made a career out of showing that the Amish were actually much more tolerant and respectful toward women than the historical mainstream narrative depicted.
There’s a large gap between saying that the hounding of Summers was a witch-hunting campaign, and that one can’t trust many academics on issues relating to race and gender. The latter is a categorical and absolutist statement, one that does not nuance then situation in any significant way. It doesn’t acknowledge that weak evidence is still evidence, or that plenty of academics—such as myself and apparently you—have more complex and nuanced takes on women and gender and race.
That is evidence that historians can be trusted, although the Amish are clearly “others” and so defending them isn’t really that politically incorrect.
“There’s a large gap between saying that the hounding of Summers was a witch-hunting campaign, and that one can’t trust many academics on issues relating to race and gender.” I don’t agree. The hounding was widespread and sent a clear message that you risk a lot if you take a politically incorrect position on issues of race or gender. If there is a group of 1,000 scholars and I believe that 100 of them will lie concerning issue X, and that another 600 would only write about issue X if they found evidence favoring a particular side, and I can’t differentiate among the scholars then it’s reasonable for me to give almost no weight to what any of these scholars say about issue X.
My personal story might be biasing me. I was initially denied tenure, but won an internal appeal when five professors on a grievance committee held that two members of my department had violated my academic freedom in my tenure review, one for being upset that I had criticized women studies departments in a National Review Online article.
Thanks for sharing your story. I’m having some challenges of my own with tenure due to my mental health challenges. It’s a powerful driver that’s leading me to be quite discontent with many aspects of academia.
You haven’t presented any actual evidence.
What credibility? Your ridiculous response to James Miller’s second question, shredded whatever credibility, you still had left.
I see you are resorting to ad hominem attacks. I declare victory.
Once you start citing your own credentials and credibility as evidence, you are no longer allowed to complain about ad hominems. That you don’t appear to know this further undermines both.
Huh? You mean you wouldn’t cite expertise at being VoiceOfRa for representing what VoiceOfRa is like? This is counter to the very nature of evidence.
If I do that then my credibility becomes relevant and hence so does evidence that there are problems with it (what you call ad hominem).
For example, you’ve claimed several times that people should believe you because you are an academic historian. However, you’ve also demonstrated an unfamiliarity with how academic politics works and with basic aspects of logical argument. This can lead to sevral possible conclusions:
1) You’re lying about being an academic historian.
2) You really are an academic historian, but are bad at observation and reasoning, and thus likely to be incompetent at your job.
3) You really are an academic historian who is perfectly willing to lie and commit logical fallacies when it helps advance your argument.
Either way, we no longer have any reason to believe that you claim on your authority.
If you wish to discover whether I’m an academic historian, please Google me.
I am not interested in engaging further with you due to your ad hominem attacks on me.
BTW, it’s interesting to observe that the comment I linked to had −6 karma last times I saw it a day ago, and now has +4. Kinda curious how it went up so far, especially since it was hidden below the threshold for the vast majority of users. At the same time, my karma over the last day went down from 1009 to 940. Sock puppet much, VoiceOfRa?
So you’re saying you’re incompetent at your job, got it.
I believe I am competent at my job. You claim I am incompetent. I’d like to make a bet with you about whether an external outsider would judge me as competent at my job. How about $1000? Take the bet, or take back your claims.
I notice you did not, have not thought this whole thread, presented arguments in your favor, or even addressed my arguments. I’d be willing to take the bet, I propose brasil84 as the judge. If you want to propose a different judge, I’s want to verify that he is himself competent to judge and isn’t biased towards you.
So are you taking the bet? Are you comfortable with Viliam as a judge? I’d also be happy with John_Maxwell, gjm, or another prominent Less Wronger.
I’d suggest Viliam, as a well-known Less Wronger and neutral observer.
Well it depends on how one define’s his “job.” As a tenure-track professor, one could argue that his primary job is to make a good impression on his tenure committee. From that perspective, publishing an op-ed which implies that rationalism just happens to support left-wing foreign policy is probably a pretty good idea. So one could say that he’s doing his job rather well.