Middle Eastern cultures are heavily based on clan/kinship relations and honor. I would expect that just accurately killing guilty people would lead to a rage effect as bad as killing innocent ones, because of the enormous number of people in the guilty person’s kinship group whose honor you have just besmirched.
Middle Eastern cultures are heavily based on clan/kinship relations and honor. I would expect that just accurately killing guilty people would lead to a rage effect as bad as killing innocent ones, because of the enormous number of people in the guilty person’s kinship group whose honor you have just besmirched.
I would guess you are probably right, but the bigger question here is how strong is any “rage effect” compared to other factors which might influence human decision-making. For example, lets suppose ISIS rolls into your town, throws a few gay dudes of off roofs, blows up the local church or mosque, and publicly tortures to death a few suspected informants. One can imagine that perhaps this will create a large Tsipursky Rage. At the same time, it will probably result in a lot of fear and despair; these emotions might actually discourage people from working against ISIS. Which is stronger in the short or long term? What other factors might be in play? These are not easy questions to answer.
For Tsipursky to claim that he knows the answer with reasonable certainty based on a few magazine articles in which a few captured terrorists cite “rage” as their motivation is the height of the worst kind of irrationality.
That said, your point does illustrate how silly Tsipursky’s position is if taken to its logical conclusion. i.e. that we should not even kill actual ISIS operatives in Syria or Iraq because that will make people angry and result in more attacks.
That said, your point does illustrate how silly Tsipursky’s position is if taken to its logical conclusion.
It’s not really silly. Focusing on cutting funding sources might be better than focusing on killing ISIS operatives,
As long as a NATO country buys their oil for money, weapons and hospital care killing individual ISIS operatives won’t go very far.
It means that in practice doing one thing means that you can do the other less well.
Let’s assume that’s true. So what? The argument under discussion was not whether the West should avoid focusing on killing people because it will undermine the West’s ability to focus on cutting funding for ISIS. The issue under discussion is whether the West should avoid killing people because it will make other people angry.
Please don’t try to change the subject without openly acknowledging that’s what you are doing.
You don’t do things like bombing or not bombing for a single reason. At the same time it’s okay for an article in a mainstream venue to focus on a single reason because the medium doesn’t allow for a deep analysis of all factors that matter.
You don’t do things like bombing or not bombing for a single reason. At the same time it’s okay for an article in a mainstream venue to focus on a single reason because the medium doesn’t allow for a deep analysis of all factors that matter.
Again, assuming that is true, so what? If one of those reasons doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, and you want to change the subject and discuss a different reason, then please be open and honest about what you are doing.
With charity the topic is whether resentment produced through bombing is a significant factor.
Conclusions based on the argument that we shouldn’t bomb can be true if you look at additional arguments and therefore they certainly aren’t “ridiculous”.
I think the factor of bombings producing resentments from the local population should factor into the calculation. You need further arguments to actually decide against bombing and a single argument isn’t enough.
Tsipursky’s article. The article only provides one reason. There no reason to see it as arguing that the reason alone is sufficient.
:shrug: Then you should have made that clear when you responded to my point, i.e. that you would respond to a different version of the article than the one I was responding to.
And you should have also applied the same principle of charity to my point and made it clear that you were changing the subject.
Saying someone is making a “ridiculous statement” is not something that I read charitably.
Actually what I said is this:
That said, your point does illustrate how silly Tsipursky’s position is if taken to its logical conclusion.
So let’s see if I have this straight. You use the principle of charity to reinterpret Tsipursky’s position so that my statement becomes less reasonable; then you refuse to offer any such charity to my statement based on your general principles. And you don’t disclose any of this until pressed onit, instead you just pretend to be responding to my point.
Please stop being so dishonest.
Also, for future reference please tell me what types of statements you refuse to read charitably.
Middle Eastern cultures are heavily based on clan/kinship relations and honor. I would expect that just accurately killing guilty people would lead to a rage effect as bad as killing innocent ones, because of the enormous number of people in the guilty person’s kinship group whose honor you have just besmirched.
Note that this dynamic can be profitably used in the opposite direction. Suppose in retaliation for someone committing a terror attack, the government exiles their entire family (out to, say, first cousins) in response. Now the family dynamics are recruited to cut things off early on, and local patriarchs face serious penalties if they fail to keep their kin in line.
(Compare to the frankpledge, wherein people were clustered into joint responsibility units, where if any person in the unit committed a crime everyone in the unit had to pay for it (if they couldn’t deliver the criminal to justice).)
Middle Eastern cultures are heavily based on clan/kinship relations and honor. I would expect that just accurately killing guilty people would lead to a rage effect as bad as killing innocent ones, because of the enormous number of people in the guilty person’s kinship group whose honor you have just besmirched.
I would guess you are probably right, but the bigger question here is how strong is any “rage effect” compared to other factors which might influence human decision-making. For example, lets suppose ISIS rolls into your town, throws a few gay dudes of off roofs, blows up the local church or mosque, and publicly tortures to death a few suspected informants. One can imagine that perhaps this will create a large Tsipursky Rage. At the same time, it will probably result in a lot of fear and despair; these emotions might actually discourage people from working against ISIS. Which is stronger in the short or long term? What other factors might be in play? These are not easy questions to answer.
For Tsipursky to claim that he knows the answer with reasonable certainty based on a few magazine articles in which a few captured terrorists cite “rage” as their motivation is the height of the worst kind of irrationality.
That said, your point does illustrate how silly Tsipursky’s position is if taken to its logical conclusion. i.e. that we should not even kill actual ISIS operatives in Syria or Iraq because that will make people angry and result in more attacks.
It’s not really silly. Focusing on cutting funding sources might be better than focusing on killing ISIS operatives, As long as a NATO country buys their oil for money, weapons and hospital care killing individual ISIS operatives won’t go very far.
The two are not mutually exclusive, agreed?
If you want to use certain NATO bases to do your bombing, then you will be less likely to criticize the policy of the countries that host the bases.
Umm, does that mean “yes” or “no”?
Truth is more complex than binary values. It means that in practice doing one thing means that you can do the other less well.
Let’s assume that’s true. So what? The argument under discussion was not whether the West should avoid focusing on killing people because it will undermine the West’s ability to focus on cutting funding for ISIS. The issue under discussion is whether the West should avoid killing people because it will make other people angry.
Please don’t try to change the subject without openly acknowledging that’s what you are doing.
You don’t do things like bombing or not bombing for a single reason. At the same time it’s okay for an article in a mainstream venue to focus on a single reason because the medium doesn’t allow for a deep analysis of all factors that matter.
Again, assuming that is true, so what? If one of those reasons doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, and you want to change the subject and discuss a different reason, then please be open and honest about what you are doing.
With charity the topic is whether resentment produced through bombing is a significant factor. Conclusions based on the argument that we shouldn’t bomb can be true if you look at additional arguments and therefore they certainly aren’t “ridiculous”.
I think the factor of bombings producing resentments from the local population should factor into the calculation. You need further arguments to actually decide against bombing and a single argument isn’t enough.
Charity as to whose statements? Mine or Sipursky’s?
Can you please quote or summarize the statement you are interpreting charitably.
TIA.
Tsipursky’s article. The article only provides one reason. There no reason to see it as arguing that the reason alone is sufficient.
:shrug: Then you should have made that clear when you responded to my point, i.e. that you would respond to a different version of the article than the one I was responding to.
And you should have also applied the same principle of charity to my point and made it clear that you were changing the subject.
Saying someone is making a “ridiculous statement” is not something that I read charitably.
Actually what I said is this:
So let’s see if I have this straight. You use the principle of charity to reinterpret Tsipursky’s position so that my statement becomes less reasonable; then you refuse to offer any such charity to my statement based on your general principles. And you don’t disclose any of this until pressed onit, instead you just pretend to be responding to my point.
Please stop being so dishonest.
Also, for future reference please tell me what types of statements you refuse to read charitably.
Note that this dynamic can be profitably used in the opposite direction. Suppose in retaliation for someone committing a terror attack, the government exiles their entire family (out to, say, first cousins) in response. Now the family dynamics are recruited to cut things off early on, and local patriarchs face serious penalties if they fail to keep their kin in line.
(Compare to the frankpledge, wherein people were clustered into joint responsibility units, where if any person in the unit committed a crime everyone in the unit had to pay for it (if they couldn’t deliver the criminal to justice).)